ripppled water borked?
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-09-2006 02:16
From: Dianne Mechanique
The funny thing is I am having such ridiculous readings that I am not sure I trust the debug anymore. I am getting hugely high (for me) frame rates like 25 or 30 and *zero* packet loss with a ping that is sometimes less than 50! This is literally two or three times better than I usually see on any of these indicators (usually my ping is in the 200 - 500 range for instance).
That was my position after the update before this one. Now I've gone back to my old terrible performance. Give me my server back! |
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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02-09-2006 03:48
Here's something a bit obsidian: I recently took a photo. The sky gradient is lovely, just this awe-inspiring clamshell opening up to the avatar's embrace. Love it. Maybe it's just psychological I resonate with these more and more, but I do know that several major versions back (harkening to when I started, 1.5.3), we didn't have such luster. However... here's the bizarre thing. Look at the water. Remind anyone of The X-Files?  The photo was taken, resized, and unaltered otherwise. Daytime doesn't have that oily eminence. |
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Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
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02-09-2006 04:03
From: Runitai Linden I made some changes to the shader that made it about 30% faster without changing the look very much. If you're seeing slower performance and significant visual differences besides extra ripple when viewing from under water, it's probably a bug.
Can you post a screenshot and some system specs? Hmmm, your idea of not changing the 'look' very much isn't mine. The new water is the most ridiculous unrealistic shade of blue - real water, unless it's full of pollutants. is NOT bright cobalt blue. I had a dull green turtle in very shallow water - since the change I've had to recolour it because the new 'toxic waste' water turned it vivid turquoise! A couple of inches of water shouldn't do that! The highlights on the water are horribly burned out and way too large It's far too transparent, it's now possible to see detail some 20m deep, which is making some waterways look horrible, with poor 'river/lake bottom' landscape showing and all sorts of submerged junk visible As of this update I much prefer ripply water OFF - sorry Runitai, I'm afraid you just screwed up what was a REALLY nice feature... 
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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02-09-2006 05:49
Too blue and kind of garish is right.
How do ww use that zip file once it's unzipped into the right folder?
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Soleil Mirabeau
eh?
Join date: 6 Oct 2005
Posts: 995
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02-09-2006 05:59
Yeah it doesn't look right. At night it looks like.....well, crap.
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-09-2006 07:05
Ok - the problem I have with the water is that under some lighting conditions, it becomes so transparent it is almost impossible to see. I did have a photograph, but it appears I've forgotten how to attach photos to postings. Either that, or the forums have gone wrong, as well. |
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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02-09-2006 09:36
From: Soleil Mirabeau Yeah it doesn't look right. At night it looks like.....well, crap. yes it looks like iridescent gel goop in waves that are disporportionate to the land. The former water ripple was beautiful and I want it back!! With all the bugs that are in SL and have been here since the start, such as the alpha flashing problem, why did the water have to be messed with!?!? |
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Julia Hathor
Child Of Nature
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 172
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02-09-2006 10:27
I definately like the OLD ripple water better! This stuff now is so...BLAH!
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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Is the rippled water a distraction from some other problem?
02-09-2006 11:07
Another vote for the old water.
The FPS meter shows the rippled water dropping me from about 7 to about 3. Before it was from about 10 to about 3. So the FPS change is less with the new water, but SL *feels* jerkier now, though, and the FPS is lower with it *off* than it was before.
Did LL make some *other* changes that are slowing things down and the rippled water got blamed for it?
I'll try the new shader files when I get home.
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Launa Fauna
Dork
Join date: 31 Aug 2003
Posts: 529
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02-09-2006 11:11
Moved to the technical issue forum. <3
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Runitai Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 52
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02-09-2006 11:25
OK, this is good negative feedback. The changes were made purely for performance reasons. I felt that the visual changes were minor and worth the benefit of higher framerates. Turns out I was wrong, so I'll take some time to find a better balance between speed and appearance.
Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate it.
Oh, and the old shader files won't work. The parameters being passed to the shader from the viewer have changed.
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Zapoteth Zaius
Is back
Join date: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 5,634
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02-09-2006 11:45
From: Runitai Linden OK, this is good negative feedback. The changes were made purely for performance reasons. I felt that the visual changes were minor and worth the benefit of higher framerates. Turns out I was wrong, so I'll take some time to find a better balance between speed and appearance.
Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate it.
Oh, and the old shader files won't work. The parameters being passed to the shader from the viewer have changed. Thanks Runitai! Its very refreshing to see this  Most other online games I've heard about, when something like this comes up have an "well this is the way we like it, watcha gonna do about it?" attitude, its great that your listening and are making changes. Although I haven't noticed a significant difference during the daytime and sunrise/sunset. When the moon is out I can't tell if theres even water on, it just looks very dark blue/black. I cann attach (or like to if forum attachments are still borked) pictures if need be
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Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
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02-09-2006 11:53
From: Runitai Linden OK, this is good negative feedback. The changes were made purely for performance reasons. I felt that the visual changes were minor and worth the benefit of higher framerates. Turns out I was wrong, so I'll take some time to find a better balance between speed and appearance.
Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate it.
Oh, and the old shader files won't work. The parameters being passed to the shader from the viewer have changed. Thanks for taking notice, as always, Runtai. Hopefully you can find a more satisfactory compromise. For what it's worth, when I switched the new Ripply Water off it was worth about 1.5 fps. I think the original Ripply water was worth about 2.5. Speaking for myself I was happy with the original 2.5 - after all, if that was hitting anyone's system badly enough to be a problem all that they need do is disable it. I think I'd rather have a 2.5 fps hit and ripply water than the 15fps hit I get with local lighting on... 
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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02-09-2006 12:50
Runitai: I'd like to ask if I'm mistaken about a performance drop in the latest version? I noticed it on both my PC and my Mac mini... max FPS is slightly lower, FPS with ripple water about the same, and I noticed it last night and this morning both. If the new ripple water is costing me fewer FPS, but something else was making the system slower, I would like to keep it as an option (and I'd like to see whatever else was slowing things down fixed ). The new water is more random, even if it's less water-like in other ways. Perhaps you could make compatible shader files available? Also... the water outside the sims in the "void" seems to be a lot deeper than at the sim edge. Is it at a fixed depth (say, equivalent to llGround() == 0?) or some kind of average of the edge? If the depth for the shading is selected in the client, how about having the client just treat the surface off-sim as the same depth as the adjacent surface on-sim? |
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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02-09-2006 13:31
I am seeing about a 10fps difference where I was seeing none( 1 or 2 fps maybe) when switching before.
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-09-2006 14:00
For once I can outdo Kathmandu. I notice no difference at all in framerate when ripple water is checked and when it is not. |
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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02-09-2006 14:09
From: Selador Cellardoor For once I can outdo Kathmandu. I notice no difference at all in framerate when ripple water is checked and when it is not. Where are you standing though? I was looking into a water void. I can switch in a sim with no view of the water and it has no effect at all.
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It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Sunshine Clio
Easily Amused
Join date: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 160
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02-09-2006 15:05
From: Runitai Linden OK, this is good negative feedback. The changes were made purely for performance reasons. I felt that the visual changes were minor and worth the benefit of higher framerates. Turns out I was wrong, so I'll take some time to find a better balance between speed and appearance.
Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate it.
Oh, and the old shader files won't work. The parameters being passed to the shader from the viewer have changed. Just some additional feedback from the peanut gallery, but since the "ripple water" is a purely optional errr option that can be toggled on and off without requiring restart, I'd rather have high visual quality over high preformance. If I turn it on I know my framerates may drop, but since I'm usually just sitting enjoying the gorgeousness I don't mind. Also, did the direction of the water flow change? I swear it used to roll in to the land but when I went and saw it today,in Shinda, it was flowing sideways. -Sun |
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Echo Dragonfly
Surely You Jest
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 325
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02-09-2006 18:43
My vote for the old look. And on a side note, the waves now move away from shore?? At least they now are for me.
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Creativity represents a miraculous coming together of the uninhibited energy of the child with its apparent opposite and enemy, the sense of order imposed on the disciplined adult intelligence. Norman Podhoretz ...................... If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? ............................ Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? 
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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02-09-2006 19:10
Has anyone started a Ripple Water watchers group? I'm just really curious... it's been such a joy to have it. (And for longtime Resis, you know it's an effective fix for the ugly sun reflection.) |
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Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
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02-10-2006 05:03
Not as far as I know. It's just there, well, was there. Mine's turned off now because I actualy prefer it that way to seeing the 'new' ripply water. *sigh*
I'm just so glad Runitai is handling this, not one of these 'there is no problem...' types.
At least one thing in SL is going to be made as good as it possibly can, and with referrence to customer's feelings on the matter!
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
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AJ DaSilva
woz ere
Join date: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,993
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02-10-2006 05:21
The waves only move away from the shore if it's a west facing shoreline. |
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Echo Dragonfly
Surely You Jest
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 325
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02-10-2006 05:36
From: AJ DaSilva The waves only move away from the shore if it's a west facing shoreline. Ahh, I do live on a west facing shoreline. Has it allways been like this? I never noticed it before, must be the new look made it more noticeable. Kudos to Runitai for getting on top of this quickly, hope he finds us a happy medium.
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Creativity represents a miraculous coming together of the uninhibited energy of the child with its apparent opposite and enemy, the sense of order imposed on the disciplined adult intelligence. Norman Podhoretz ...................... If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? ............................ Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup?
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-10-2006 05:43
From: Runitai Linden OK, this is good negative feedback. The changes were made purely for performance reasons. I felt that the visual changes were minor and worth the benefit of higher framerates. Turns out I was wrong, so I'll take some time to find a better balance between speed and appearance.
Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate it.
Oh, and the old shader files won't work. The parameters being passed to the shader from the viewer have changed. Ok - for some positive feedback. I noticed that straight vertical lines above the water level were no longer refracting, so the refraction now looks great. Also the view from under the water is now brilliant. If you could combine those with the old appearance of the water without people crashing, that would be the perfect solution. |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-10-2006 05:45
From: Kathmandu Gilman Where are you standing though? I was looking into a water void. I can switch in a sim with no view of the water and it has no effect at all. Anywhere. I've tried it several times in several different locations. All of them in view of water, including looking into a water void. *feeling slightly smug* |