Second Life Forums Archive - My Own Objects Returned To My Inventory?!?!?!?!

Jopsy Pendragon

Perpetual Outsider

Join date: 15 Jan 2004

Posts: 1,906

10-03-2006 09:04

Ever examine something and wait for a long time to see the owner information? I suspect that when parcel saturation occurs, the sim goes through it's "last in, first out" list once that's exhausted tries to determine what to chuck out next... it checks the owner of other prims, and gives up before getting an answer, or gets no answer, and decides it's fair game to return.

(Lately I've had some of my own rezzed-by-object items returned to me from my own land... even during non-grid attacks. I suspect the problem may be related)

I'm probably way off base... but that's my theory on why it happens.

Hardware bans won't help. CC verification won't help... the malicious folks will always find ways to get in, and it only takes one person to ruin an evening for 10,000+ people. The only way to resolve this is to make SL more resistant to self-replicating attacks.... which, of course, will break other things.

It's an unfortunate side effect of a bad situation, hopefully LL will find some innovative ways to deal with it.

Regardless, I'm still enjoying SecondLife enough to make paying for my tier worthwhile. A few inconveniences here and there are to be expected in a unique world that's trying to keep up with rather a rather staggering population increase.

eltee Statosky

Luskie

Join date: 23 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,258

10-03-2006 09:58

From: Jopsy Pendragon

Ever examine something and wait for a long time to see the owner information? I suspect that when parcel saturation occurs, the sim goes through it's "last in, first out" list once that's exhausted tries to determine what to chuck out next... it checks the owner of other prims, and gives up before getting an answer, or gets no answer, and decides it's fair game to return.

Actually that may be an interesting thing... and possibly very true as well... if the asset load is so high it can't get owner bits, and it gets triggered to return cycle... it may just start returning arbitrarily... since it can't 'figure out' who owns what, and since the problem objects are often extremely motile, by the time it comes to cull stuff, they've already moved on to other areas and all thats left are 'owner' objects whos tag id hasn loaded yet

_____________________

wash, rinse, repeat

Takuan Daikon

choppy choppy!

Join date: 22 Jun 2006

Posts: 305

10-03-2006 10:31

From: Enchtris Byrd

I am sorry for your loss ... wish these things didn't happen

Thank you for that.

From: Enchtris Byrd

backing up prims as in taking them into inventory as copies ... possibly naming them backup (item name) 1 then 2 then 3
but this just adds to the mess our inventories are in now !!!

The really frustrating this is that I did in fact do that, to no effect. The copies simply do not exist now

It could have been much worse, I suppose, so I am thankful that it was not worse than that. Quite irritating though.

Danielle Eber

Registered User

Join date: 27 Jul 2006

Posts: 28

Why no user backup?

10-03-2006 17:36

I was trying to figure out why we can't back up our inventories to our
own home PCs. It should be pretty easy to implement, since items get
fed to you to display the inventory and create the graphics displays.
It would just be a matter of saving the data to a file.

If you have a backed up copy of your inventory and feed it back to LL,
since items have unique identifiers, it sould be trivial to compare what
you feed back to what's in their database and only add the items they
are missing.

The answer I came up with is that LL don't want you to have a copy of
your assets independant of their system. What's to keep someone
from setting up one or more servers independant of LL's system with
their own grid, using your asset data to populate it? It would allow
competition, and as a business they don't want that.

Danielle Eber

Registered User

Join date: 27 Jul 2006

Posts: 28

What might be possible

10-03-2006 17:46

In my previous post I explained why LL doesn't want user backup of
asset data (potential for competitors to populate their system with the
data).

In this post I suggest an alternative that would be workable from LL's
point of view. That is to provide a secure backup from their asset
servers to a dedicated backup system. The backups would only be
done on resident demand (preferably with a choice to do partial or
total backups). There would be a small fee charged for the service
to cover the costs involved.

That way, if the assets are valuble to a resident, they can get a backup
done, and be able to restore them if needed. Casual players can
ignore the feature. Everybody happier.

Takuan Daikon

choppy choppy!

Join date: 22 Jun 2006

Posts: 305

10-03-2006 19:41

While I would certainly prefer that the system were reliable enough not to lose my stuff in the first place, I can easily imagine being willing to pay for reliable backups.

I can even more easily imagine paying for a version control system, however

I do think that it is quite possible to do offline backups even without LL implementation using third-party libraries, and perhaps someday even a version control system. I know that it is already possible to iterate through the inventory and do a rough dump, but I do not know how much further and more capable it is at this time.

Dallas Horsefly

Registered User

Join date: 9 Mar 2006

Posts: 2

I too have things just GONE from inventory

10-04-2006 09:15

I too have had things SUPPOSEDLY returned to my inventory to completely VANISH....whats up with that!?!?! I've sent bug reports, abuse reports, same thing...LL cant do anything about it and I've invested prolly more than I should in the game to have things just "GONE" Hours spent looking for just the perfect item, and its dissappeared. I agree, LL has all our account info, you'd think they could re-inburse us for things lost in some way....HELL! I've had so much returned and lost I couldnt begin to tell you what all I had!! I hate being so vulunerable to the 'script kiddies' It's just irritating!!

From: Enchtris Byrd

We have had the same thing happen. Older items that should
never be returned according to how the return process works ... has been sent to lost and found just as you spoke of. We have also had things completely vanish off land with no recovery as to where they went. The things returned to our inventory can not be rezzed out either due to data missing in system. Letters were sent to abuse and to support with a reply saying we do not support any loss you might experience in the SL game. Please possibly contact designers for a replacement as it doesn't cost them anything??????

Who is going to believe we took these losses .. would you???? with the amount of scamming that goes on.
Tis very sad not being able to keep our own inventory on our own puters ... in turn we become subject to these attacks and screwups. In the long run any loss we take .. were on our own..

We all can relate to the real money we spend as premium members along with thousands of dollars invested in the linden currencty .. Lndens turn off to any help or support in these situations without batting an eye.
Our inventory becomes an expensive commodity that over time is established thru real dollars ... I hate the fact that someone has that much control to run away with our hard earned money as Lindens do with us.

Wow .. we are the priviledged ones to join in a greatly advertised game .. that everyone seems to be dying to play. We lose to any flaws or screwups or attacks .. they can't protect their own servers from . And that is called FUN !!!!

We might as well put aside a certain amount of money each month and just flush it down the toilet. and then say... thank you Second Life .. I had a wonderful time !!!!!
I wonder how things would be run .. if the table was turned and no one paid lindens ...
Should we all send them an e-mail statng we do not support any loss you might take in the Second Life Game???? Maybe Contact a designer and ask them .. as it doesn't cost them anything !!!!!!

How much more will we endure ??????

Deandra Watts

F-Bombardier

Join date: 12 Aug 2006

Posts: 485

Thank you

10-04-2006 10:03

I was reading these posts, more and more horrified --and not just a little paranoid about the items in my inventory and on my property. Mentally counting the prims vs. allowance and wondering what percentage of self-replicating garbage might leave me with the outcome when I read this:

"We might as well put aside a certain amount of money each month and just flush it down the toilet. and then say... thank you Second Life .. I had a wonderful time !!!!!"

I haven't laughed that hard in a loooooooong time ...my GOD i love sarcasm

So thanks *wipes tears*

Tormented Twilight

#1 Cheese Lover

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 103

01-06-2007 13:31

From: Enchtris Byrd

We have had the same thing happen. Older items that should never be returned according to how the return process works ... has been sent to lost and found just as you spoke of. We have also had things completely vanish off land with no recovery as to where they went. The things returned to our inventory can not be rezzed out either due to data missing in system. Letters were sent to abuse and to support with a reply saying we do not support any loss you might experience in the SL game. Please possibly contact designers for a replacement as it doesn't cost them anything??????

Who is going to believe we took these losses .. would you???? with the amount of scamming that goes on.
Tis very sad not being able to keep our own inventory on our own puters ... in turn we become subject to these attacks and screwups. In the long run any loss we take .. were on our own..

We all can relate to the real money we spend as premium members along with thousands of dollars invested in the linden currencty .. Lndens turn off to any help or support in these situations without batting an eye.
Our inventory becomes an expensive commodity that over time is established thru real dollars ... I hate the fact that someone has that much control to run away with our hard earned money as Lindens do with us.

Wow .. we are the priviledged ones to join in a greatly advertised game .. that everyone seems to be dying to play. We lose to any flaws or screwups or attacks .. they can't protect their own servers from . And that is called FUN !!!!

We might as well put aside a certain amount of money each month and just flush it down the toilet. and then say... thank you Second Life .. I had a wonderful time !!!!!
I wonder how things would be run .. if the table was turned and no one paid lindens ...
Should we all send them an e-mail statng we do not support any loss you might take in the Second Life Game???? Maybe Contact a designer and ask them .. as it doesn't cost them anything !!!!!!

How much more will we endure ??????

These errors/miising data/no rez, lost inventory have been proliferating since yesterday.

_____________________

SteamJunk, HoboJunk, SpaceJunk, FreeJunk n' more!
News, Online Store, Blog n' more: www.tinyurl.com/junkworld
Shop on XSL now: www.tinyurl.com/tormy

My Own Objects Returned To My Inventory?!?!?!?!
Jopsy Pendragon Perpetual Outsider Join date: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 1,906	10-03-2006 09:04 Ever examine something and wait for a long time to see the owner information? I suspect that when parcel saturation occurs, the sim goes through it's "last in, first out" list once that's exhausted tries to determine what to chuck out next... it checks the owner of other prims, and gives up before getting an answer, or gets no answer, and decides it's fair game to return. (Lately I've had some of my own rezzed-by-object items returned to me from my own land... even during non-grid attacks. I suspect the problem may be related) I'm probably way off base... but that's my theory on why it happens. Hardware bans won't help. CC verification won't help... the malicious folks will always find ways to get in, and it only takes one person to ruin an evening for 10,000+ people. The only way to resolve this is to make SL more resistant to self-replicating attacks.... which, of course, will break other things. It's an unfortunate side effect of a bad situation, hopefully LL will find some innovative ways to deal with it. Regardless, I'm still enjoying SecondLife enough to make paying for my tier worthwhile. A few inconveniences here and there are to be expected in a unique world that's trying to keep up with rather a rather staggering population increase.
eltee Statosky Luskie Join date: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 1,258	10-03-2006 09:58 From: Jopsy Pendragon Ever examine something and wait for a long time to see the owner information? I suspect that when parcel saturation occurs, the sim goes through it's "last in, first out" list once that's exhausted tries to determine what to chuck out next... it checks the owner of other prims, and gives up before getting an answer, or gets no answer, and decides it's fair game to return. Actually that may be an interesting thing... and possibly very true as well... if the asset load is so high it can't get owner bits, and it gets triggered to return cycle... it may just start returning arbitrarily... since it can't 'figure out' who owns what, and since the problem objects are often extremely motile, by the time it comes to cull stuff, they've already moved on to other areas and all thats left are 'owner' objects whos tag id hasn loaded yet _____________________ wash, rinse, repeat
Takuan Daikon choppy choppy! Join date: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 305	10-03-2006 10:31 From: Enchtris Byrd I am sorry for your loss ... wish these things didn't happen Thank you for that. From: Enchtris Byrd backing up prims as in taking them into inventory as copies ... possibly naming them backup (item name) 1 then 2 then 3 but this just adds to the mess our inventories are in now !!! The really frustrating this is that I did in fact do that, to no effect. The copies simply do not exist now It could have been much worse, I suppose, so I am thankful that it was not worse than that. Quite irritating though.
Danielle Eber Registered User Join date: 27 Jul 2006 Posts: 28	Why no user backup? 10-03-2006 17:36 I was trying to figure out why we can't back up our inventories to our own home PCs. It should be pretty easy to implement, since items get fed to you to display the inventory and create the graphics displays. It would just be a matter of saving the data to a file. If you have a backed up copy of your inventory and feed it back to LL, since items have unique identifiers, it sould be trivial to compare what you feed back to what's in their database and only add the items they are missing. The answer I came up with is that LL don't want you to have a copy of your assets independant of their system. What's to keep someone from setting up one or more servers independant of LL's system with their own grid, using your asset data to populate it? It would allow competition, and as a business they don't want that.
Danielle Eber Registered User Join date: 27 Jul 2006 Posts: 28	What might be possible 10-03-2006 17:46 In my previous post I explained why LL doesn't want user backup of asset data (potential for competitors to populate their system with the data). In this post I suggest an alternative that would be workable from LL's point of view. That is to provide a secure backup from their asset servers to a dedicated backup system. The backups would only be done on resident demand (preferably with a choice to do partial or total backups). There would be a small fee charged for the service to cover the costs involved. That way, if the assets are valuble to a resident, they can get a backup done, and be able to restore them if needed. Casual players can ignore the feature. Everybody happier.
Takuan Daikon choppy choppy! Join date: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 305	10-03-2006 19:41 While I would certainly prefer that the system were reliable enough not to lose my stuff in the first place, I can easily imagine being willing to pay for reliable backups. I can even more easily imagine paying for a version control system, however I do think that it is quite possible to do offline backups even without LL implementation using third-party libraries, and perhaps someday even a version control system. I know that it is already possible to iterate through the inventory and do a rough dump, but I do not know how much further and more capable it is at this time.
Dallas Horsefly Registered User Join date: 9 Mar 2006 Posts: 2	I too have things just GONE from inventory 10-04-2006 09:15 I too have had things SUPPOSEDLY returned to my inventory to completely VANISH....whats up with that!?!?! I've sent bug reports, abuse reports, same thing...LL cant do anything about it and I've invested prolly more than I should in the game to have things just "GONE" Hours spent looking for just the perfect item, and its dissappeared. I agree, LL has all our account info, you'd think they could re-inburse us for things lost in some way....HELL! I've had so much returned and lost I couldnt begin to tell you what all I had!! I hate being so vulunerable to the 'script kiddies' It's just irritating!! From: Enchtris Byrd We have had the same thing happen. Older items that should never be returned according to how the return process works ... has been sent to lost and found just as you spoke of. We have also had things completely vanish off land with no recovery as to where they went. The things returned to our inventory can not be rezzed out either due to data missing in system. Letters were sent to abuse and to support with a reply saying we do not support any loss you might experience in the SL game. Please possibly contact designers for a replacement as it doesn't cost them anything?????? Who is going to believe we took these losses .. would you???? with the amount of scamming that goes on. Tis very sad not being able to keep our own inventory on our own puters ... in turn we become subject to these attacks and screwups. In the long run any loss we take .. were on our own.. We all can relate to the real money we spend as premium members along with thousands of dollars invested in the linden currencty .. Lndens turn off to any help or support in these situations without batting an eye. Our inventory becomes an expensive commodity that over time is established thru real dollars ... I hate the fact that someone has that much control to run away with our hard earned money as Lindens do with us. Wow .. we are the priviledged ones to join in a greatly advertised game .. that everyone seems to be dying to play. We lose to any flaws or screwups or attacks .. they can't protect their own servers from . And that is called FUN !!!! We might as well put aside a certain amount of money each month and just flush it down the toilet. and then say... thank you Second Life .. I had a wonderful time !!!!! I wonder how things would be run .. if the table was turned and no one paid lindens ... Should we all send them an e-mail statng we do not support any loss you might take in the Second Life Game???? Maybe Contact a designer and ask them .. as it doesn't cost them anything !!!!!! How much more will we endure ??????
Deandra Watts F-Bombardier Join date: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 485	Thank you 10-04-2006 10:03 I was reading these posts, more and more horrified --and not just a little paranoid about the items in my inventory and on my property. Mentally counting the prims vs. allowance and wondering what percentage of self-replicating garbage might leave me with the outcome when I read this: "We might as well put aside a certain amount of money each month and just flush it down the toilet. and then say... thank you Second Life .. I had a wonderful time !!!!!" I haven't laughed that hard in a loooooooong time ...my GOD i love sarcasm So thanks wipes tears
Tormented Twilight #1 Cheese Lover Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 103	01-06-2007 13:31 From: Enchtris Byrd We have had the same thing happen. Older items that should never be returned according to how the return process works ... has been sent to lost and found just as you spoke of. We have also had things completely vanish off land with no recovery as to where they went. The things returned to our inventory can not be rezzed out either due to data missing in system. Letters were sent to abuse and to support with a reply saying we do not support any loss you might experience in the SL game. Please possibly contact designers for a replacement as it doesn't cost them anything?????? Who is going to believe we took these losses .. would you???? with the amount of scamming that goes on. Tis very sad not being able to keep our own inventory on our own puters ... in turn we become subject to these attacks and screwups. In the long run any loss we take .. were on our own.. We all can relate to the real money we spend as premium members along with thousands of dollars invested in the linden currencty .. Lndens turn off to any help or support in these situations without batting an eye. Our inventory becomes an expensive commodity that over time is established thru real dollars ... I hate the fact that someone has that much control to run away with our hard earned money as Lindens do with us. Wow .. we are the priviledged ones to join in a greatly advertised game .. that everyone seems to be dying to play. We lose to any flaws or screwups or attacks .. they can't protect their own servers from . And that is called FUN !!!! We might as well put aside a certain amount of money each month and just flush it down the toilet. and then say... thank you Second Life .. I had a wonderful time !!!!! I wonder how things would be run .. if the table was turned and no one paid lindens ... Should we all send them an e-mail statng we do not support any loss you might take in the Second Life Game???? Maybe Contact a designer and ask them .. as it doesn't cost them anything !!!!!! How much more will we endure ?????? These errors/miising data/no rez, lost inventory have been proliferating since yesterday. _____________________ SteamJunk, HoboJunk, SpaceJunk, FreeJunk n' more! News, Online Store, Blog n' more: www.tinyurl.com/junkworld Shop on XSL now: www.tinyurl.com/tormy

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My Own Objects Returned To My Inventory?!?!?!?!