How to React to Texture Theft

No one is saying you can't, but wouldn't it be nice to not have to deal with the problem? I am here to have fun, not waste my time, and hard earned money on some theft. I remember when Microsoft's Flight Simulator first came out. Everyone involved in design were sharing their knowledge with the community. The third party designs sky rocketed with each new developement. Then, of course, as time went on, people started to charge for their work, and the design community was left with very little sharing of knowledge for the sake of it. Money the all mighty destroyer of good things.

Again, my thoughts, have a great day, and wonderful SL life.

HUGS, Barb

Hooo boy. I hope you brought your asbestos undies today, Ian!

It's not JUST a game. It can be played as a game, it can include games developed by citizens. But in order to be a game, you need coded rules and goals, which SL doesn't have. It's free-form, it's open-ended more than any other online community you will have seen to date. To call it a game is to denigrate what it really is.

And I'm sure if you take the time to listen to the more successful merchants, you will realize that they either make real-life livings off of their SL endeavors, or else earn a very nice adjunct to their RL income. That puts it way outside the area of a "game" for them.


You're telling this to people who have been a part of Second Life for a year, 2 years, 3 years? Do you think your perspective is superior to theirs? It kind of sounds like it.

Hi BarbaraEllen!

I think that you are overlooking something.

In most games, there are people who are hired by the company that owns the game to create content. Those people are paid healthy salaries to work 40 or more hours a week, and in return, they create things that draw other people into the game, and entice them to stay there.

In Second Life, we don't have that. Instead, we have people who start to create content for the fun or challenge of it. Gradually, as the other people in the game decide that they enjoy that content, the creators are given a financial reward. Eventually, a minority of them find that they are now earning enough from creating content for Second Life that they are able to quit their day jobs, and start to work full-time for SL.

If they weren't paid for what they do here, they wouldn't be able to do as much. They would, obviously, have to work somewhere else, and would have much less time to make things for SL. We wouldn't have a richer world, if everyone had "a real job"; we'd have a poorer one.

Many of the people who do earn their living here continue to help others. All you have to do is look at the people who answer questions on this board every day, and you can see that. I haven't done a survey, but I'd guess that those who helped before they were able to come here full time still help. Those that didn't still don't. Earning a living here doesn't change the nature of a person, you know. Just the hours that are available to devote to SL.

As far as theft; it's not a form of flattery, it's the epitome of selfishness. It's a form of thinking "I'm the one who really matters, and I want this, so I'll just take it. Who cares about you? You're just a toon anyway, not a real person, like me or my friends."

If everyone had enough empathy to really understand how being stolen from feels, either in RL or SL, and enough caring to wish not to harm others, then theft would stop on its own; because no one would want to do that to another person.

As long as people don't understand, or get their jollies from making others feel hurt, violated, confused, and generally unhappy, then theft will continue.

It's as simple as that.

Part and parcel of the problem lies with how each person interprets what SL is. For those that use it specifically to derive pleasure from, its just a social game. The usage then has various gradations from this all the way down to those who specifically use it to derive income from and do not partake in the social interactions and idiosyncracies of the community. While those who create content may enjoy the creation part of it, its actually classified as work.

If you transfer this to a regular RL environment in an office. You're sitting at your desk trying to get things done, and suddenly a coworker hops by, grabs your notebook computer and runs out the backdoor, singing. Because its a 'game' to the person, its of no consequence to them. Its fortunate that in RL, there is a fairly clear separation of what is entertainment and what is work, and there is usually mutual respect for each other.

The anonymity of SL though, coupled with a lack of law enforcement simply makes these bad elements inevitable, and can only get worse as the population increases. Its anarchy at its best.

Um WOW.... ppl do get touchy when it comes to textures that are "supposedly" theirs. I would like to point out a few things just for the record since this has become like a huge debate over how to stop texture theft.... first lets start off by as Kyrah pointed out earlier by quoting some of our terms of service, which mind u LL also has the right to change without notice to its consumer, is simply when it comes to textures such as clothes and eyes, etc, etc is simply they own them since u used there template to make them. Now u can yell about that till u turn blue and say u used a different template such as chips templates but again his templates were created using LL's which means they own them wether partialy or fully. Though thats not really a problem since I am sure LL has no care to claim them nor use them for themselves other then indivual use from its employees. The second issue is how on earth do u ppl credit GLintercept with all this texture theft I know about HALF of sl merchants I have seen do not create there stuff from scratch I have seen in on poser or other various websites and programs which they then photosource.. which then the bases for there work isn't even really there own which I myself have been known to do this since its a great starting point to turn out some nice clothes and learn how to make originals in the mean time, since a lot of us don't have any schooling on how to do most of our stuff from scratch. In essence some of u are bitching and ranting when u sit there and photosource and maybe give a lil twist to the creation then decide to bitch when someone comes out with the EXACT same design and a lil twist similar to urs and say they "stole" it, please ppl I don't even see why this is an issue unless u make ur stuff from scratch which BY uploading it u know and take the risks of ppl finding ways of stealing or mimicing it and last note its just as easy to take a picture of someones clothes and photosource them from that as it is to use a program.... AND if u have that big a problem with "GLintercept" then E-mail the creator I am sure his/her oringinal intention was not for it used to become a program stealing others works and If enough ppl e-mail I am sure he/she will change the program so it is no longer possable to use it for such a purpose...

Besides, even if it were a game, that does not make it OK to steal.

I can't get over how many people think that it is OK to do anything that they can get away with. How can such a person live with themselves?

It -is- a game. But its not -just- a game. Its a game one can use as a platform. You don't need goals for a game. Otherwise World of Darkess (vampire/werewolf, etc) isn't a game. That would make it a platform. Ask White Wolf is their Vampire game is a game or not. There are no set goals in the base rulebook, the terms of service, of WoD. So yes, SL -IS- a game.

People make money on World of Warcraft too. And its STILL a game.

It might be out of the 'game' area for those merchants, but its them using a game as a platform. SL IS a game, albeit one can use as a platform.

Call SL what you want, use it what you want, but you'll never get around my logical exclamation of 'SL is a game.'

Edit: it still isn't ok to steal, but it is ok to upload and use a texture taken from a website. No matter who uploaded it first

Hi! Three things.

First, Rakasha, Linden does not own the copyright to the textures any of us create, even if we do use their templates. (Which, as I keep saying, aren't templates; they are UV Maps. ) The applicable part of the TOS states;



The license rights basically allow Linden Labs to use our content for advertising, marketing, display (without which it would all be kinda pointless,) testing, and other stuff like that. They never say that they own any of it; in fact, they state quite clearly that we do, (and that it's our responsibility to protect it.)

Also, you might not realize this, but this whole discussion started (this time) because of some hair textures that didn't use the templates.

So, ummm. Yeah. We do, in fact, own the textures we've created.

Secondly, everyone, Second Life isn't a game at all, and doesn't advertise itself as such. Also from the TOS;



Not "Game," "Multi-user online environment." No "game" about it. (Although, of course, there are many games in it. )



Ummm... Jonas, that's still stealing. It's stealing from the owner of the website, not a fellow Second Lifer, but it's theft, none the less.

Speaking as a person who has a website that people lift things from all the time, to sell on e-bay, or to post on their own websites, or to place on disks of "public domain" clip-art, it's still copyright violation, whether you steal directly from the web, or from your fellows here.

I realize that many people don't know this; but the Digital Millennial Copyright Act made it quite clear. Assume that everything on the web is copyrighted, because nearly all of it is, and don't take things without permission.

On the other hand, if the people who own the website aren't interested in coming into Second Life, they are very likely to give you permission. I give people permission to use my work every day, and I have yet to charge anyone a nickel.

I've also asked permission to import several things that other people created, and so far, I've gotten it in all but one case, and no one charged me anything, either.

So, if you see something you want to use, ask!

You might not get any reply, because the person who created the work might be too behind in their e-mail to get back to you. In which case, go find something else to use, if you can't make your own. But don't just take stuff. It's rude, it's thoughtless, it's illegal, and it could cost you tens of thousands of dollars in fines.

Just thought you should know.

It is a game, sorry. I'll take the Lindens word as gospel when that Havok2 hits before 1.7 comes out!

Its a game to me. Its a game to MANY.

It will remain a game, however you yourself and others may see it. You are free to use it (and see it) as anything you like! Thats the beauty of it.

Nice attitude. So it's not about what you steal it's who you steal from?

Wrong context. I always get permission before uploading my textures from a website. Silly me, being honest. Those for my own personal use only (and never distrbuted) I just follow an artists or sites terms of service. Many sites allow usage of their imagery for nonprofit uses, and though I never cash out on the lindex for profit, and leave all my lindens in game, I don't even make a virtual profit on them. Those sites that state not even for own nonprofit use, I don't take from. A good example is Goldenwolf, who does anthro art. If I wanted to make art for my own purpooses only, I could take 4 of her pieces, as long as I left her copyright info on them. Toonpinups (spelling?) specifically says no unless you are a GILD member and use the GILD authorized pieces (including your GILD ID number).

Robin, and SL Friends,

To start off, third parties are not people hired by huge conglomerates to produce products. They are individuals, or smaller companys that make content for a program, whether it be for profit or not.

Secondly, those people who eventually recieve their income from SL, hats off to them, but cover your content. Don't whine about it, look before you leap, cover your content before you release it. If you can't cover it, or protect it, and it means the difference between eating or not, then you should do your home work before you release it. Don't release something that you prize expecting that it will not be copied. History shows that if you make something worth having, others will try to either steal it, or copy it. Some in this world can't make it on their own attribute, so they feel they need to beg, steal, and barrow from the ones that can. That is why our or penitenteries, and jails are full of them, you will never stop them from their plight. I am not condoning their actions, I am saying that the content creator need to cover their rear, before they jump out there, and release a new product.

Sure it is really a big problem without Linden supporting these creators that produce saleable products in the world they created, but the other side of the coin is the creator needs to think of her/himself before they release goods for purchase, especially if they depend on it for their livelihood.

As far as the empathy thing goes, you will never ever see such a thing happen in our current world. So, a work around is in order.

Actually, I see the whole thing as several business rivals working against one another instead of working to comprimise. One is jealous of the other because they hold a larger market share. That person decides to do the wrong thing, and take action to help improve their chances at a bigger market share. The current victim now decides to take action against the thief. The victim has no protection, the thief still is working it's way to the larger market share. The victim now removes the product from the shelves, or reduces the access to them to stop further rip-offs. The thief is still increasing their market share, some people will always go for the cheaper product, whether wrong has been done or not. Now the victim is spending as much time on the thief, as they are on their products. The law doesn't care about the rights of the creator, because they either don't have the money to spend on it, or they don't have the pull with the law to be noticed. The thief is still increasing their market share. Now the victim is totally frustrated. What to do, what to do?

It sounds to me that the victim didn't do their homework, and if they knew that this was possible to happen, why did they chose this form of income in the first place. The thief knew what they were doing, and that IS why they chose this form of income. The thief knows the law won't be on their side, and that they will be innocent until proven guilty. The victim thinks the law is on their side, but really, the law thinks of them as the guilty party for accusing someone else. Not the burden of proof is totally on the shoulders of the victim. They not only have to show proof of the thiefs guilt, but also proof that they are innocent of any wrong doing. Why does this sound like being stuck between a rock, and a hard place?

So, being as things are, the victim still wants to collect an income from their SL, it looks like the victim needs to improve their protection factor, and move on. Otherwise, they are spending a lot of time on legalmatters, and less on the things that make them money. That is why I say, "If you can't stnad the heat, got out of the kitchen". The victim needs to adapt to their environment, or allow time for changing it, which would make their income take a hit. The whole thing is between several SL business people, why does the community have to endure this.


You say you would like us community members to see your side of the story. The whole purpose of me even voicing my opinion here was to let you know what some of us patrons feel about the whole matter, so you can focus a bit better on the way things are in RL, or SL. You say you want me to understand your plight, well, I know your plight. I have been there in real life, and it no piece of cake. I have created many MSFS(Micorsoft Flight Simulator) scenery, and navigation packages as a third party creator, and saw my creations turned into worthless junk by others who took intellectual material from me, and used it to lessen my market share. But, in the long run, because of some of these actions the community benefited from them. And I did this while using an alias, because women are not accepted well in the MSFS community. You think it is bad in SL, you should try to make an income in MSFS.

This will be my last post in this thread, but I will read on, because I like to see what people think of the whole matter. Again I am here in SL for my own personal reasons. I think it is very wrong for people to prey on other people just to improve their own life style, and I am a good person at heart. I think, if you have positive proof that this thief stole your intellectual property, LL should either chastize them by not allowing the theif to sell anything in SL for a long period of time, or boot them altogether. They broke a trust, and a law, so they should pay for their wrong doings. LL bans, and restricts people all the time for breaking the rules. Take repeated gun attacks. I just think you are looking at this with tunnelvision, and need to take a wider view of it, and a good look at what you may be destroying in YOUR SL.

Thanks for your time. Bless you all, and have a great SL.

HUGS, toodles, Barb

What would you have them do to 'cover or protect it'? It can't be done. Because the only recourse you have at all is to wait until after you're fucked over and issue a DMCA takedown - and from experience it's no recourse at all, because LL don't always act on them.

So basically you're saying no one should ever upload any textures to Second Life (or the internet, for that matter) because it's possible to copy it by a number of means that are entirely out of our control? After all, I can print the screen or intercept the opengl if I want a more exact copy.

By that reasoning, no one should ever do anything online, let alone in SL.

Hmmm. is there an echo in here?

Oh good answer!

Why is that an unreasonable question? You make some long rambling preachy post about how people should be 'protecting themselves' without being able to answer the basic question of how they should do it?

You were the one who says it's on the creators heads if they dont. So I'm asking how.

Because what I got from your post after your entirely impossible suggestion that people protect their works or quit whining was that, for example, Textures-R-Us, PixelDolls and indeed anyone else should not be in business if they at all are concerned that it's possible for Joe Fucktard to walk into their store, capture every texture in there to their hd and batch upload them to SL again. Then again, given the kind of people that like to spout off around here, that logic and attitude wouldn't surprise me one bit.

So I'll ask again. How do you propose people 'cover their backs'? Or are you just full of it?

Believe me, I wouldn't answer your question now even if you got down on your knees a begged me to give you the answer. You talk about people's attitudes, look in the mirror, Pal.

Well of course you'd say that. It gives you a good excuse to not answer the question. Because you can't. Because you're full of it.

And here folks we have the bumbling idiot, who can't read a post for the content. He only reads what he wants to read, and then bashes the author, because he doesn't have the fortitude to go, and find the answer himself. He wants it handed to him on a silver platter.

Should we really tell him the answer, or should we let him stew a bit more until his temper drives him insane. Wait til he finds out the answer, it will really drive him insane. Kris I know your type, you are just one of those argumentitive types, who thinks his opinion is the only right one. I am much more open minded, and respectful of others than you will ever be.

Kris, you seem to be the big shot know-it-all why don't you explain the answer to the question at hand for everyone, so we can clear this whole problem up, and get back to our SLs. You obviously don't see the answer, and it's right in front of your face.

Yes.

Tell him the foolproof way to protect yourself from content theft, and do it here publicly so other bumbling idiots (such as myself) can learn too.

I think the secret is just to make crap content that nobody wants to steal.

I am sorry BarbaraEllen, I have read through your posts and those of the people who answered you. I can understand your point of view. I am sorry about what happened to you with the flight simulator group. However, I feel you are being disingenuous. With your baiting comments.

As Kris, Robin and others pointed out; there is no way to stop the lifting of someone’s work. To say that they didn’t do all the work in the first place is a bit like saying I didn’t build a house because I used prefab walls or something. The house is still my home, built by me. I would not be happy if someone burnt it down one day.

If someone did my burn my house down, would you say to me? “Well, you should have known better, considering the neighborhood.” Would I not have a right to complain?

I am a fledging clothes designer. I hand draw ninety percent of my stuff. I take pride in drawing it and not photo sourcing. I also enjoy seeing the garment take shape. However, I did photo source in the beginning. It was a growth step for me. I found it an easier way to get familiar with the UV maps and still get something you feel you can wear. I still give away some of these earlier outfits to new residents.

If you lifted my hand drawn design, it would be no big financial lost to me. However, I wouldn’t like it from a moral and ethical view. I do get ideas from the net. I have taken pictures of stuff from my RL closet to use in attempting to reproduce. I once mentioned in another post, none of the designs I copy from websites every really ends up looking like the outfit I saw on the screen.

I am not good enough to copy it exactly. Sometimes, I can’t get a fold right or, the texture or, pattern. So I change it to something I can do. In your view, am I not entitled to considering this my design?

My little clothing store is insignificant to the economy of SL. Although, In spite of what I just said above, I probably would be flattered if someone thought enough of my design to steal it, at least the first time. Not so the big name designers.

I spend a lot of time looking at other people’s designs. Not to copy them but to learn how they do something. I think I have gotten pretty good at telling good work from so so work and photo sourced material. The good designers, the names everybody hears within a month are real artists. Their clothing is very artistic and well done, within the confines of SL’s environment. To steal their design is wrong.

I proudly wear a Namssor Daguerre skin. Before I purchased it I looked very closely at Chip Midnight’s, Lo Jacobs’ and a couple others’ skins. I got the demos, wore them, took pictures and looked them over very carefully. I had my SL bf look at me wearing them.

They are works of art. They are all beautiful in the details and subtle shading. I wish my RL skin was that faultless and beautiful. I bought Nam’s because it was the closest to “me,” than the others. I can only imagine the work, time and effort that went into each of these skins. To steal them, and that is exactly what we are talking about here is flat wrong.

Be as logical as you want. Overlook the morality of the issue to focus on the legal minutiae and details. Try and pretend we are just a bunch artist’s want-a-bes who all go around stealing from each other and then cry. The “everybody’s doing it syndrome,” as my mother use to tell me. I think you are wrong.

I have been here since Aug. of last year. That is long enough to have learned to respect the wisdom and knowledge of people like Robin, Chosen Few, Chip Midnight and others. All of these people are real artists who have an artist’s pride. They also know what it takes to succeed in SL.

Kris Ridder, whom you called a bumbling idiot, has been around since 2003. She may have been one of the original beta testers, for all I know. I would think that she just may know a thing or two about SL.

Yes, SL is a game. I came here when I was between bfs and lonely and bored. I fell in love with the people in SL. We may have doll like avatars that we play Barbie & Ken with by dressing up over and over. Behind ever avatar is a real person. The vast majority are here willing to give of themselves to help others. Many of the big name designers are mentors or live helpers or greeters or instructors, or they give some of their time in here, to help new people get more from SL.

I think they are a lot like me. SL has become a second home to us. We don’t want to see our home trashed by rip off artists.

I am sorry if I sound shrill. ( I am not as logical and calm as Robin ) I am not trying to run you away. I welcome you to SL and want you to be comfortable here. You are no longer a newbie, so I can’t offer my greeter or mentor services. Still, you are always welcome to my SL home n Rustic.

Please don’t lump all of us in an “I will get all I can get” category. I believe those who say there is no way to currently protect the hard work of real artists from being ripped off. I believe they have a legitimate and moral right to complain.

I also believe that SL has a lot more kind and generous people than scumbags...or bumbling idoits


Jen

Boy, you're full of shit, arent you?



I read the post. There is no content. It's a deflection of blame onto content creators for not protecting their content. Except it's not possible.



I read the whole thing. And bashed the author for the fact that they are full of shit and blaming content creators for not enacting some mythical protection that you magicked outta your ignorant ass.



Who the fuck are you talking to? Bolstering your fictitious argument with a royal 'we' are you? Because several others have also asked what it is that you think people are not doing that they should. I don't actually care what your answer is because I know you're full of shit. It's really not going to drive me insane. I'm just proving that your post was just so much bullshit. And I think I did that already.



And I know your type. Smug self satisfied asshole who blames people for being victims and says it's their own fault for not doing more. Without being able to answer what that is. Because you can't. And that's why I don't respect you - because you're sitting their smugly blaming content creators when some scum fuck steals their stuff as if there was anything they can do about it, yet refusing to enlighten them as to what that might be. Also noted how quick you leap to the offensive when challenged on any of your BS points.



If I knew the answer, dumbass, I wouldn't be asking a fucking cretin like you for it. I know you wont ever give this answer because you're totally full of shit.

I get your attitude completely. "If you dont want your shit stolen, dont create shit."

You can extend that to anything, really. If you don't want your data stolen, don't turn on your pc. If you dont want your house burgled, don't own a house.

I agree with you on one point; people are complete cunts and will do whatever they can get away with. Which is why the emphasis should be on how creators and LL should react to it when it happens. Not sure how you telling them in a wordy but meaningless post that it's their own fault really helps that, especially when the answer is apparently 'staring us in the face'. I guess that's why you're so fucking smug, huh? Because you're the only one in SL clever enough to know what the solution is. No wonder you're not divulging your secret!

Kris, while I agree with what you're saying could you please keep the language to polite and civilized? If this thread gets locked the rest of us will lose our chance to find out Barbara's wonderful solution to all our woes or, alternatively, our chance to say "I told you so" when it's revealed there isn't really a soluiton other than the afore-mentioned "only upload junk no-one wants to steal".

Yes, and that language isn't very lady like either.

Jen

If you would have read very closely, you would see that what I am saying is there is no current soultion to the problem, as Kris has so violently revealed to us. And, that people who design the wonderful clothes, buildings, vehicles, scripts, and so forth have to make a choice. They either have to put up with the thieves, spend time with legal action, get Linden Labs to chatise these people so they think twice before they do it again, whether it violates their rights or not. Hell, they have already violated yours. In the mean time, the thieves are still making money.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<the point is.

I someday hope to be talented at creating things in SL too, so this whole scenario draws my interest. I am already talented in other games, and simulations, so it is not like I won't get there. But, I would like to see what way my mentors, or master designers handle the situation, so I can learn from them, and eventually be as good as them.

Now just to set the record straight, Kris just cause you have been here since 2003 doesn't mean you have the right to bash others for their opinions. You are nothing but the scum of the forums no matter how talented you are, or how much you help. You are nasty, filthy mouthed, disrespectful bitch, and you should be removed from these forums. I also noticed that you are nothing more than a trouble maker, because you even mention that you are not very interested in SL anymore anyway in your profile. You can harrass me for all you are worth, which isn't much, but I will not answer to your disrespectful posts no longer. Go find a spin cycle, and calm yourself down. You are not the first asshole I have come up against. Your kind is the reason why others can't get much done in forums. They have to put up with your bashing everyone.

HUGS, to everyone, but Kris. I have a red hot poker for you.