How to React to Texture Theft

Were you in any way involved in OGLE itself? There is a pic of the Ahern dragon in the website here. Seems to have it extracted out as a mesh. And a 3d printed avatar too, which would be a cool thing to have actually.

http://ogle.eyebeamresearch.org/

Yeah. House burglars are just misunderstood.

Anyone comes into my house with the intention of stealing my stuff and they're not leaving by their own mobility. They'll get the choice between ambulance and coroner, if I'm feeling generous

Anyone who makes their living out of stealing other people's stuff, whether it's stolen dvd players irl or stolen textures in SL is a pond dwelling scum piece of shit. Period. And I can fully understand why Nam is not willing to take someone seriously who is 'indifferent' to theft, as you put it.

No, I have very little experience with OpenGL and 3D graphics in general. I feel more at home with a compiler and a debugger than Maya and a grahics SDK. That is a very cool thing though the 3D printing, as soon as I get my building skills up in SL I might have to get a print of something I make. I think this example goes to show that tools aren't inherently good or bad, but how people use them can be seen as such.

Part of the reason I formed an LLC is to have the ability to issue takedown notices to Linden Lab when I find infringing content, ie. ripoffs. I also plan to trademark key components of my materials.

It seems the only recourse. Of course, things will still get stolen.

FWIW I'm also an experienced reverse engineer, with plenty of experience dealing with copy protection and anti-cheat/anti-RE code.

I have to disagree. Yes, at a fundamental level, SL cannot win this one. But it doesn't need to, when you consider that the SL community is not overflowing with experienced reverse engineers!

Look at the current controversy. People are (presumably) using debugging tools to dump textures from the client. They aren't hacking the protocol, they aren't writing custom SL tools, they're simply using "off the shelf" tools - and they're doing that because they do not know what an IAT is or how to use code injection. We do - yay for us - hopefully those few of us that do know these things are mature enough to respect the SL economy and not make it easy for those who don't.

Ultimately any fight between Linden Lab and an attacker is carried out on a level playing field. LL is not guaranteed success but they are not guaranteed failure either. There is a LOT of scope for writing code that is extremely hard to break using traditional RE tools - witness the StarForce virtual CPU trick for instance which has successfully held people off for years (all the StarForce cracks I know of involve faking a CD drive, not bypassing the checks in the program itself).

Given that LL have a lot of smart programmers on their team, I think they stand a good chance of keeping the SL client secure for some time yet.



Yes, it does, I quite agree - but until such a time that a full working social/legal solution has been phased in I see no problem with putting roadblocks in place to stop those who would abuse debuggers for malicious ends. There is no black/white divide here. If people are suffering and losing enjoyment of the product TODAY then I would not hesitate at all in whacking a few checks in there. Given that the GLIntercept people won't be fighting back it would not be hard.

I think Maxx Monde makes a short but very interesting point here, that sits in stark contrast to much of the casual talk about invoking the DMCA that I have seen in numbers of forum threads, including this one.

Maxx has taken legal steps at his end (and is apparently taking more) that change his relationship with LL and enable him to make demands that I, and other individual members, cannot. This is a proactive approach that moves well beyond waiting for LL to "do something" and I, for one, congratulate him on it.

Not only is it imaginative, it is innovatory and exciting.

Yes, I know that there are other "real" companies like Electric Sheep operating in SL but they differ radically. They started as a business plan outside SLand then moved in. Maxx started as one of the best in-world architects and is now protecting his SL content by extending out to RL.

Oh dear: now he will probably flame me for saying "one of" the best

Out of curiosity, from what experience you have, how complex is it to write code to determine the difference between the usual opengl32.dll and the one as written in the glintercept version intended to do a texture dump?

If the SL client can recognize it, then it can prevent itself from running. Since the glintercept tool was meant as a hobbyists debug tool, it doesn't have any form of stealth or detection avoidance features, should it not be simpler to write a deterrent for?

If a texture can be found online, me uploading or dumping it is -not- theft.

Prim shapes can't be copyrighted.

Feel free copyrighting -full- nonmodify builds and original textures. If I uploaded it from the net, theres nothing you can do.

I won't rely on the broken permissions system for indicating whether someone can rip me off. I'll rely on the trademark and copyright law. I'll be making things that are original, and protected under the DMCA.

Of course, you don't need to believe any of that, but your belief won't stop a properly filed takedown notice.

DMCA isn't my favorite thing in the world, but honestly it is my only recourse in dealing with Linden Lab.

And I'll save snapshots to disk of my building the items and save a log of sites I got the textures from.


My items won't be taken down. No matter how close or identical they are -and your perceived rights won't matter in a hat since my creation will be original.

Oh, I see, instead of logical debate its devolved into an e-penis contest.

Ok, whatever. Let us know how that works out for you, in the end.

Logical debate = I have proof my work is original. Therefore it doesn't violate DMCA. thats no an e=penis argument, thats evidence in presence (spelling?). No matter how close it comes to yours.

I don't know anything about GLIntercept except what it does. IIRC it slows down the program quite a lot when dumping textures, no? So timing glTexImage2D or whichever call it hooks would work and be independent of different versions.

Easier ways are just to scan the list of loaded DLLs looking for two that export the same entrypoints. GLIntercept probably loads the real GL driver at some point so it can forward the calls on, so, by checking if there are two loaded DLLs that export glTexImage2D rather than just one I suspect you could spot it that way too.

At any rate, there are lots of different techniques that could be used.



Correct.

Even if you look at cases like WoW!Sharp, which was a for-profit game cheat for World of Warcraft, Blizzard defeated them before they even entered kernel mode. They couldn't guarantee you wouldn't be caught and banned. How do you make money selling a product that is certain to get you banned at some point? Of course you can't, not really, people don't risk it in large enough numbers.

It'd be amusing to find out how LL can keep a staff dedicated to follow up on this system without charging additional fees, and understanding that you don't have to be premium to create...

What you are suggesting is something similar to what was done in THERE... he. Believe me. We DON'T want to go down that road.

I was never involved with THERE, so I can't comment on that.

This is what we have to work with right now:

Trademark and Copyright Info (rev. 10 April 2006)

I was not the one that started this thread, or the numerous others on this very subject, so I have to assume I'm not the only one who would like more to work with (some kind of accountability within SL) regarding content theft.

I've tossed my idea out into the public forums here in hopes that it would perhaps generate some other ideas for a solution to this problem for better or for worse. So far, nothing. Maxx Monde has been the only one that has offered tangible advice (which I already employ).

Let me offer one final scenario for people to chew on:

Resident A creates unique and original content.
Resident B knowingly rips off resident A's content with intent to harm them.
Resident A finds this content and files a DMCA takedown notice.
Linden Lab steps in and takes resident B's content down honoring the DMCA notice.
Resident B files a counter-notice and Linden Lab puts the content back up
Resident A is now obligated to hire legal help, pay legal fees and other expenses to take resident B to court to get a settlement.
Weeks or months go by in the litigation process. Thousands of dollars are spent out of pocket.

How many people can afford to do that 10 times over?
20 times over?
30 times over?...

Take a closer look at this link:

http://lindenlifestyles.com/?p=99

provided by the original poster.

That will pull up false posatives on people using glIntercept for it's legitimate purpose; remember this is NOT a tool that is only used for stealing textures, and lots of people in SL are also involved in 3d work and professional texturing and coding and other stuff that may use the tool.

The only technical fix is to have 100% DRM coverage; all software and in every bit of hardware (including the monitor) would need to be involved. This is what the recording industry wants to do with audio, and I'm against it because of the severe burden it places on legimate customers.

Unless you're developing a 3D engine I cannot think of many legitimate purposes. And if they do exist, then the number of people (who believe they are) affected by texture theft has to be weighed against the number of people who use GLI legitimately.

I think the right way to evolve this is to have sections of the world with no permissions system at all, which are open to home-grown/hacked clients - people who want to enter that part of the world or be visible to those using non-official clients just have to accept that they need to charge for *creation* of content not *selling* of content, a la the web.

An example of 'legitimate purpose' if you can call it that is shown even on homepage of the OGLE plugin -- someone might want to grab a 'snapshot' of their avatar shape, or of whatever it is that they created, for 3d printing or to put it in a 3d rendering package.

And since OGLE relies on glIntercept for this... when you block it, you deny access not only the would-be thief, but the 'rightful' creator as well.

You want to know why LL dont take a stance and get more involved in Texture Theft?

Because they know full well a large % of ppl claiming 'texture theft' are probably using textures they themselves dont own. Whether than be a fabric they found off the net for a design, a brick wall created by some-one else who some-one has modified and claimed as their own, or a photograph of a RL outfit some-one photosourced for one of their clothing designs...all of the above happens and happens a lot and with ' reputabale' creators and texture artists.

LL have posted a thread in the Linden Announcments bit in the forums about copyright which pretty much backs up what I say here and that is dont claim copyright when your using other ppls textures yourself, its a conflict of interest.

We are all hypocrits to some degree...very few VERY original content 100% original.

I think it sucks and yes it will effect me but like I say...we're all hypocrits at some level and for those who can hand on heart say ' youve never downloaded music from napster or taken a denim texture that wasnt yours for use in a design or copied a CD of music for a friend' then Godo for you! keep up the good fight! But your a minority I fear.

here are some readings for maxx monde to keep in mind, they are bits from the TOS about copyright and patents:

article 5.3
"...) You also understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the Service, you automatically grant (...) to Linden and to all other Participants a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, transferable, irrevocable, royalty-free and perpetual License, under any and all patent rights you may have or obtain with respect to your Content, to use your Content for all purposes within the Service. You further agree that you will not make any claims against Linden or against other Participants based on any allegations that any activites by either of the foregoing within the Service infringe your (or anyone else's) patent rights. (...)"

interesting?



and this is in case you start to be a problem by waving DMCA and squealing abot your copyrights (of course they will do what they have to do to comply with the law, but read below)

article 7.1
(...) Linden has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this Agreement, and/or refuse any and all current or future use of the Service without notice or liability to you. (...) Linden may suspend or terminate the Account associated with such breach and any or all other Accounts held by you or your affiliates (...) you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any Land Use Fees, any Linden Dollars (L$) that you hold, or for anything else (...)




to conclude i am not in favor of ripping off peoples, however , as long as textures go trough my own graphic card, i will always be able to read them in it's memory.

There is no such thing about a technical solution for this, the only solution is to prove your talent and continue mùaking new stuffs, make new hair textures, new clothes, its only by making new and compelling stuffs that you can put a distance with copycats, because all they can do is copy what you do, but you are still the designer. God you got your hair texture copied? make another, in fact make a new one for every haircut, prove that you are better than a copier, that you have the talent.

THe only one that will whine are the ones that where counting on their past glory.



To stay at the top is a constant struggle.

i give you one legitimate reason, some peoples in sl are making texture baking in SL to get static shadows in their building, the ability of glintercept to record 3D meshes of a scene make them spare a lot of time, they just need to import the scene in 3dsmax, then clean it and its almost ready for shadow baking.

Kyrah, I don't consider working around limitations of the SL engine a legitimate purpose, sorry.

Everybody would love proper static shadowing, but at the same time it's a "nice to have" and not essential, whereas right now SL is entirely dependent on its economy working. One day when people don't consider digital content they create to be property that would not be an issue, but that day isn't today.

itsnot a limitation of the sl engine, if it is then its a limitation to all 3D engines existing on earth

its because of peoples like you that we have music cds that can't be played on a computer

This issue doesn't exactly have much to do with economy working on the whole -- cheap rip-offs are part of RL economy after all, and have been pretty much forever. They did not kill the economy and are unlikely to do so out of sudden now.

It's really about the individual creator, and their ability to earn what they feel they're entitled to. Which is issue important enough on its own, there's no need to paint it as something it really isn't.

On sidenote, the "nice to have but not essential option of getting static shadowing" can be utilized as way to make your work appear better than competitor's and thus generate more sales of your work. So, ironically enough, the side effect of banning an utility so it doesn't reduce one's sales... might be causing situation where by this very act you do negatively affect one's sales, for people who put effort into going the extra mile and doing the 'non essentials'. Just something to think of...

Ya, you can tell I don't really read the forums much...totally missed this.

Anyway, I just want to explain the reason why I changed my textures.....

Yes, one of the main reasons why I changed them was because I felt someone copied them/stole them/hacked them whatever. To me, I was hurt....corny and cheesy, I know, but it was true. Basically, I changed them because I had been planning to do it the first place....but this incident just fueled my fire.

I understand people may have not liked the changes....and I hate to put it this way, but such is life. Change...it happens. My intentions for changing my textures were not to stop texture theft from happening...or to deter someone from doing it to me again....I know I can't do that....and it's pretty clear unless you are ready with your lawyer to take legal action, not much can be done. I did it for me....and I did it for the sake of upgrading. My PS skills have improved and I wanted to redo the old ones I didn't like which was almost all of them.

I went from 30-something textures to 65...going to be 70 soon....I think I give plenty of choices. Anyway, all the textures that I did are textures and colors I LOVE. I did it for me, because I make the hair for me really.

Anyway, as I always say, if you don't like them, by all means don't purchase it. I'm so grateful you just took the time to look. It's an expression of my creativity...I never wanted to fight the crime of texture theft...if it's a crime.

Anyway, I implemented my new textures probably about 3 months ago...why is this news now?