Photoshop CS4 - previews

No more guessing, no more wishing...

http://tv.adobe.com/?promoid=DRHXB#vi+f1556v1684

Paint directly on the model with the full set of Photoshop tools - Totally RAD!

I want, I want, I want!

Santa - please read this and deliver....

My god, it's like what DeepPaint wishes it was.


Not terribly useful to people who don't do 3D graphics (and that would be the majority of Photoshop users) but oh so useful for the ones who do (eg. SLers.)

Good for Adobe! They know what they are doing in targeting the game design and medical imaging market.

I would like to have seen more demonstration on the 3D painting tools, but the comment "all Photoshop tools available for 3D objects" sums it up rather nicely.

Deep Paint 3D was one of my poorer investments ($600) for the amount of use I get from it. Now that Photoshop CS4 covers 70% of it's painting capabilities, I will probably use DP3D even less once I upgrade to CS4. The next time I upgrade my workstation, I'll probably not even bother renewing my DP3D license.

I've been waiting years and years for exactly this. I can't even describe how excited I am.

One thing that remains to be seen, though, is how well it will handle the avatar's ridiculous UV layout. A lot of 3D painters don't deal with it well at all. But then again, if it doesn't, that's just one more nail in the current avatar's coffin, as far as I'm concerned. Sooner or later, LL's gotta see the light on this, and give us a better av mesh. But I digress.

Anyway, CS4 is looking like it will easily live up to Adobe's promise for it to be the most significant improvement to Photoshop in over a decade.

I admit to knowing next to nothing about UV mapping, so I realize this is probably a fairly stupid question. But here goes:

How will textures map in CS4? In other words, if you have a Wavefront object file, can you just paint it up in PS, then use that image as a texture on a sculpt created from that object? Or will we have to create an SL compatible UV map for it?

Right now, I use Zbrush for my 3D texturing. While I know it can support different types of mapping, right now all I do is paint and export, and that seems to work just fine. I suppose I am really asking if CS4 will be similarly easy (Besides SL use, I'd also like to create objects in Zbrush, then import to Photoshop to create scenes and whatnot)

Hope that wasn't too inchoate.

Quite a bit of lag on the paintbrush when painting directly on the model. I'm looking forward to seeing some in depth reviews when this ships. Pretty hard to tell how good it'll be from the scant info released so far. Looks like it could be great.... or not. The ability to project a 2d layer onto the model from the screen plane looks excellent and extremely useful. I hope you can mask it after the projection is done. Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer for some better info about this release.

You'd need to have proper UVs before bringing it in to PS (or the ability to convert to correct UVs in another app). PS will use whatever UV mapping is on the model when you import it. AFAIK it won't have any UV mapping tools.

Thank you, Chip. So, putting this concretely, my workflow might be to create an object in Zbrush, do preliminary texturing there (I actually like many of the Zbrush texturing tools), then export it as an obj. file along with the texture to PS, where I'd finish up texturing with the PS tools (yay layers!).

What about an object with overlapping maps? I'm thinking of Nammsor's avatar Ztools here. Could those be used in CS4 (after exporting as an obj. file from Zbrush, I mean)?

Gah. I probably should study UV mapping more if I'm going to play with 3D. Have you any suggestions on a "UV mapping for the Dim" tutorial?

Unfortunately I can't be of any help with Zbrush since I don't use it, but your workflow sounds fine to me.

I knew there was a reason my last sim development check is still sitting in the bank... *grins*. Part of it's gonna pay for this upgrade. Woo hoo!

*Ceera adds the 3D features of CS4 to the growing list of software that she bought, or will soon buy, yet needs to find time to learn how to use well.*

I don't think those new features will improve workflow with Second Life...... it is something quite useful for 3d visualization and other 3d game platforms. Just maybe just maybe it may be useful. For example, right now I use Photoshop together with Unwrap3d...changes I do in Photoshop show immediately in the 3d viewport of Unwrap3d......the uvmap lines can be seen in Unwrap3d nicely........If the new Photoshop can show the uvmap lines and all that would be nice, that way I don't have to have 2 programs opened at same time. Another nice thng is if can open sculpts directly without converting to Obj

It's hard to tell from the video alone, but I would agree that it does look somewhat laggy, yes. That's disappointing. We'll have to wait to find out if it actually is, and how much. If it's no worse than the video makes it seem, I could live with it. Hopefully it will be better. I'd imagine hardware will make a huge difference. Mileage will likely vary considerably from computer to computer.

Also, we don't know how many polygons were in the model in the video. If it's a high rez mesh, then that sort of lag wouldn't be altogether unexpected.

In any case, you're right to be cautious. I've been waiting for this for so long, my excitement might be getting the better of me. You've given me pause to remember at least that I should download the trial and give it a thorough testdrive before I actually upgrade.

As for masking after projection, my guess is that with the procedure she used in the video, that won't be an option. She applied the projection by merging layers, which is I have to assume was destructive. Unless there's non-destructive way to do it, there's gonna be an annoyance there for sure. Again, the trial will tell.

I'll certainly post my review here when the trial comes out. I'd love to hear your opinion, Chip, so I hope you (and others) will as well.



I can't see how it wouldn't. From clothing/skins to texturing sculpties to texturing regular prims, I can think of about a thousand ways off hand that this could be incredibly useful.


Wait a second. Are you saying that when you paint a stroke in PS, you see the stroke appear on the model in real time in U3D? I've never used U3D, but I would be incredibly surprised if that that sort of real-time communication between the two programs is possible. Or by "immediately" did you realy mean "immediately after save and refresh"?

Also, does U3D allow you to paint directly on the model's surface using Photoshop's toolset? Again, I'd be really surprised if it does.

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions here, but unless U3D is packing some serious godlike power under its hood that they've somehow managed to keep quiet from most of the world, you're not comparing apples to apples.



We'll have to wait and see if PS will show UV lines or not, under its own power. If it can't, there's a really easy work-around, though. Simply apply your UV map as a layer in your texture. I'd actually suggest two layers, one as the background, and the other on the top as an overlay.

I am curious, though. Given that you can paint directly on the model's surface in CS4, why do you feel it's necessary to see the UV lines? Granted I don't use 3D painters all that often (primarily because up until now, none have had what I consider to be a worthwhile toolset), but when I do, I'm not looking at the UV's. I'm looking at the geometry. Of what benefit do you feel it is to see the UV's on the model as you piant?


OBJ's probably still your best bet for the immediate future, depending slightly on what modeling program you're using. What's been announced so far is that PS CS4 will be able to import and export OBJ, U3D, KMZ, and COLLADA, and will also be able to import 3DS. So if you're using Max, conversion probably won't be necessary, but if you're using anything else, OBJ is gonna be the simplest thing to use. I'd imagine it will only be a matter of time before plugins start to appear for additional formats, though.

What I'm more concerned about than file formats is surface types. The list of supported formats strongly suggests that there won't be any support for NURBS or subdivs. That's not really unexpected, but it is annoying if true.

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Paint on 3D models in Photoshop?? COOL!!

Weird thing is, I had a program that did that years & years ago. I think it was "Paint 3D"? I think it eventually became DeepPaint. Back then it only supported a few file formats & was rather clunky.

I've never used U3D but I know that kind of live link between PS and another app is possible. That's essentially what GhostPainter does, only in reverse. I assume it works by both apps accessing the PS temp file, so whenever that's updated it shows in the other app.

I'm a bit more cautious and less excited than others about this because I can already use PS tools to paint on a 3d model (albeit not in real time). CS4 will have to be better than GP to get me to switch (because lord knows how long it'll take Cebas to upgrade GP for CS4). I'm optimistic about this though. Adobe rarely puts out crap when it comes to its flagship apps (7.0 excepted).

Thanks for trying to clarify, but I'm still confused. These two statements seem to be at odds with each other. First you appear say it shows your strokes as you paint them, then you seem to say you need to save first. Which is it? I'm really interested to know. Thanks.



That's the big difference we're all talking about. In CS4, you'll be able to paint directly on the model's surface. If that's not what you're doing now, then you're not making a fair comparison with CS4. CS3 already does exactly what you're using U3D for, but CS4 takes it to a whole other level.



Maya does not support real-time communication with Photoshop. Yes, you can set up a PSD network so you can have all your shader channels show as individual layers in your PSD, which is a really handy feature, but you can't paint on the model and have the strokes show in PS in real time as you paint them. You have to save first, and then the display will update. And since Maya's built-in painting tools aren't all that great, most of us don't work that way.

As for Max, there's a third party add-on called Ghostpainter, which is what Chip uses. I'm not a Max user, so I've never used GP, but to hear Chip tell it, it's a fantastic program.

But none of that entails what we've been talking about here, which is the brand new ability to paint directly onto model surfaces with all of Photoshop's tools.



Sure. I never meant to imply U3D or AC3D were bad programs. I would agree, that for inexpensive apps, they're fine. (Or at least they appear to be from what I've read of them. I've never actually used either one first hand.)

But that wasn't the point. The point is, as I said, CS4 will allow us to paint directly onto surfaces with all of Photoshop's tools at our disposal. No more painting on the 2D canvas, and simply observing the changes on the model. You can paint right on the model itself.

Lots of 3D paint programs already allow that, of course, but none have ever come close to rivaling Photoshop's toolset. And that's why this is so exciting. Finally we'll get to use the full gamut of Photoshop tools to use in 3D.

I love it. The only thing it really lacks is real-time painting. Your strokes in the Max viewport are tracked (and shown as a simple line) then they're recreated in the PS document using the currently selected brush and the result updates in the Max viewport. If CS4 has good responsiveness and can handle relatively high polygon models without choking it'll likely trump GhostPainter.

My other major concern is how it will handle UV gaps. For example, if you paint across the seam between the ear and the side of the face will you end up with a stroke that goes diagonally across the face (beause those polys are between where the stroke exits the ear and enters the face in the UV space) or will it intelligently skip over that section of the UV space and not create a stroke across polys you didn't actually paint on? Here's hoping they get it right. Time will tell.

Exactly, uvmaps and its lines are very very important for perfect results. Painting on the 3d model itself is okay for simple things that don't require alot of detail. Highly skilled 3d artists for game development do not paint on 3d models, they paint on 2d and on todays high end game development they first create a high resolution model first, so that they can create the uvmaps/normal maps for the lower polygon version. I still will keep an eye on the new Cs4 hoping its Second Life friendly and even maybe eleminating additional programs........

Gusher, I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that professional game artists don't use 3D paint programs. They absolutely do.

The biggest reasons that painting in 2D is still so prevalent are twofold. First is simlply that it's been around a lot longer. The ability to paint in 3D, while not exactly born yesterday, is relatively new. Second, there aren't a lot of good 3D paint programs on the market. Even the very best of them are quite lacking in features and painting capabilities, compared with the likes of Photoshop (which again is why CS4 is so exciting). But even so, an awful lot of professional game studios do use Deep Paint 3D.

I don't often use 3D paint programs, myself, but I know many artists who do.

I have 3ds Max, Z Brush, Deep Paint, BodyPaint amond several other programs. What has gotten me exited about this is that with Photoshop I will now have the full array of paintbrush capability (Burn, Dodge, smudge, paintbrush, eraser) to create those materials. Even with the 3rd party apps and painting on a model with Z Brush and BodyPaint, there was always something lacking. I use smudge quite heavily when I am creating realistic folds etc, and that will be easier even if it is a bit laggy...

Anyway - it should make it a bit easier to line up those awful seams...

The only caveat is that you HAVE to have a texture/material already applied to the model BEFORE you bring it into Photoshop. Yay. With the SL Avatar OBJ that has always been a point of contention with me. The UVW maps ALWAYS cause issues so I'm not sure how it will work with Photoshop. Of course it may be me and not the obj file - I don't know. On files that I create that have more than one UVW map it seems fine - it's just the OBJ file... Sigh.. I'll stop now. I'm just rambling.

It's not as good as painting directly on the model, but have you tried the ZAppLink plugin? It works a bit like projection master, but uses Photoshop (or any other image editor). You take a snapshot with it, then it exports that 2D image to PS, where you can work on it with the usual tools. When done, you send it back to Zbrush, and it applies the modified texture to the Ztool.

Free download is here: http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/zapplink/

I don't think it that thye can't see the light, but more of fear of what will happen when they have to change it. As I understand, short of land, clothes is the larger mover of the economy. So any change in the avatar will impact the economy. LL doesn't want an avatar change to similar to the RL sub prime mortgage debacle. which brings us to a different question which I think would make a good thread.

I'm sure you're right about that, Thunderclap. That's why I keep proposing adding a new avatar to exist alongside the old one. Anyone who wants to keep using the old one could, but those who want something better would also win. The old one wouldn't have to disappear until and unless every single person stopped using it.

I didn't think of that. I guess I thought the system would create or let you create your own 3d model in there. A virtual person to put the skin/clothing on for instance.

So how will this impact skinners/clothing makers in a practical way? This is still a good thing, right?

Yes, it's still a good thing.

The avatar mannequin models you can download from the SL website already have materials on them. All you need to do is import them into PS, and you'll be able to assign clothing/skin textures to the existing materials.

The only things you won't be able to do are create new models and new materials from scratch. For that, you need a 3D modeling program, not just a paint program.