How safe are our inventories?

I've been lucky with not having to deal with content loss *knocks on wood* and I think it's something us lucky ones seem to want to keep quiet and say "Oh, it's not going to happen to me, these are freak accidents."

I guess with anything, it's a feature we need to demand, but I love the encryption idea... maybe each person has an encrypted copy of their own stuff, while a general list of keys of items has a copy stored.

Has anyone put a proposal in the vote thingy about a back up system. Maybe we need to show them with numbers how many people are worried about this.

Eggy, thanks for posting that link. I see I'll have to change the email addy there at the end, and then I see some empty quotation marks where I apparently need to put in something called an EOL (I have no clue what that means) . . . is there anything else I'll have to change? I know how to build, and I can script some, but I guess this is a bit over my head. Do I just drop this in an item I want to back up and it emails me the parameters of all the prims it contains? Is there a way to reconstitute my object using another script, or do I just get the info about each prim and have to recreate each of them? Sorry about all the questions, but I've been very worried about my work going missing and I'd really like to understand how to back it up.

I lost prolly 100k Lindens worth of bought stuff when my inventory did its disappearing act. This was when 1.6 happened.

The two most expensive items, fortunately, were made by two very nice people who replaced them for me even though it was far from being their fault.

Also among the stuff I lost were things I have built myself over the last two years. Dozens and dozens and dozens of them.

In fact, I still havent figured out all of what is gone, because some you only find out when you go look for something and it's gone, or you go to rez something and it's not in the database.

The Lindens did precisely nothing. Well, thats not entirely true. I reported a very expensive item go missing initially, and I got back a "we have looked in your inventory and it's not there". Well no shit, Sherlock.

I've never actually had money go missing, as I know others have, but due to the fact the Linden Dollar sucks atm, I have rather a lot of Lindens in my account even tho I no longer play. I actually breathe a sigh of relief every time I log in and it's still there, because as well as having no faith in SL, I have no faith in LL to rectify or even acknowledge the situation should my 1000+ USD go missing for no good reason.

The solution, really, is for LL to stop trying to protect IP and give people an easier ability to manage and report copyright infringement which can lead to banning if investigation reveals that you are infringing on someone's copyright.

Trying to protect build structure and texture IP is pretty much impossible against sophisticated hacks.

Protecting script IP is possible, but this architecture will not survive in a peer 2 peer open world. You can also subvert the technical IP protection schemes sometimes and get copies of scripts (if not their actual contents).

Banishment based on copyright infringment will. If you have a copy of something and you can't prove where you got it from, then that leads to a warning. So many warnings and you are banned permanently from the world.

Once LL stops trying to technically protect IP and use social techniques instead then people can back up their inventories.

This solution can

a) Take significant load off a central inventory database server
b) Create the concept of sim local asset servers

Ideally you should be able to back up your parcel as well as you build on it. This includes, all objects, structures, scripts, textures, etc.

FYI, I have three copies of everything I have made for sale:

1. In an inventory box I sell stuff via SLExchange
2. In my inventory
3. A copy goes to an ALT for everything I put up for sale

I have copies of all my textures and scripts on local drives. Data retention is the number one thing you learn to do when in the info biz.

For once blaze, I think we agree.

<sigh>

You can agree with out the irrelevant commentary, thanks.

Yeah, they seem like freak accidents until you start to compare notes and realize the scope that it is happening. I am all for progress and moving forward with SL, but if they can't get something so fundamental as preventing data loss right, all the great new features are meaningless.

Linden Lab presents themselves as a service provider, and hides behind the ISP/host badge to avoid liability and responsibility for a lot of things, but you can't have it both ways. Why is it that the company I pay $20 a month to host my web site has better data backup and disaster recovery capabilities than the one I am paying $300 a month to host my virtual land and items?

Well, Cristiano I admire you for trying to tackle a very serious subject.

However, we also have to realise that this discussion goes the fundamental heart of stability and survivability of SL.

While I tend to "shit stir", the issues brought up by this thread (I believe) are far more dangerous than anything I've ever posted.

I'm not trying to complain here, I'm just trying to say that we need to be more wise in how we approach this particular subject.

I think we all need to be less focused on the problems here and get more focused on the solutions and we need to start strenously advocating that SL seriously consider them, and obviously very quickly.

I too have lost inventory. I wouldn't care for textures and the stuff I've made myself, I could have always made it again. BUT.....I lost 3 sculptured heads, "chiseled in stone" that Starax made on my land. They were unique, there are no copies, not even Starax kept one. They will forever live in my memory. One day they there were there, the next.........gone.

Blaze is entirely correct in stating that the issues raised are dangerous. Because they highlight the thoroughly unprofessional manner in which LL runs SL.

The combination of poor, nay, virtually non-existent customer support, lack of any useful backup facility and erratic regulation must make LL one of the poorest providers of online services on the internet.

At the very least, if LL is unable or unwilling to provide support for customers suffering difficulties they should be encouraged - very strongly - to enable a system that allows customers to take responsibility for their own data protection by allowing customers to back up their data on their own computers.

After all, this would in fact provide LL with the ultimate get-out when (not if!) disaster strikes:
'OK, so you lost your inventory? And your AV is corrupt? So? just restore it from your backup'
....
'Ah, you didn't backup? Well. that's YOUR problem'

However I suspect the LL reaction to this thread is going to be somewhat negative to say the least because of the implied criticsm of LL management policies.

Another interesting question arises from Cristiano's comment about the difference in service between webhosting providers and LL's hosting services (because there isn't that much difference from a hardware/bandwidth point of view between a webhosting account and a SL account) - why are SL tier fees so high?

In my opinion SL would be a bigger, more diverse and far more interesting place if tier fees were lowered drastically...

I'm having a problem with individual items still being listed in my inventory, but when I got wear or rez them, I am told that they are missing from the database. I was on the forums to post about it when I saw this thread.

This has all started happening since my inventory was moved, so I'm assuming the stuff got corrupted or something in the move.

I've also lost some irreplaceable stuff in the past when it was mass-returned when an apartment I was renting was demolished-- I didn't get everything back, so I'm assuming that just vanished into the ether in transit (since the alternative is that the landlord half-inched the stuff).

Having an alt to keep backups of your stuff is a marvelous idea, one I'm demonstrating right now .

Would you prefer "I have nothing to add at this time, because you've already stated my opinion?"

No sarcasm this time. I genuinely think you made a good point.

Continue discussion.

Well that's the point now isn't it. LL is an developmental laboratory. Everything they do is experimental. Second Life is a perpetual test of what works and what doesn't. People've slapped me silly for saying these things the past two years; but it's true.

We can use Second Life, just like LL do, to develop our virtual world skills, enhance our resumes, make a bit of cash, and have some fun. But we can't, reasonably, realistically expect it to function as a stable platform. If it was ready for production, they'd be making a blue fortune licensing the software and taking the distribution company public.

They make no bones about this either. We've been told, in no uncertain terms, from the beginning, that our accounts and holdings are considered "temporary" and expendable. We are paying LL to delta test software they're developing because we believe that this project is laying viable groundwork for the next generation of streaming 3D Internet software. How can we expect any more than we're getting?

Out of curiosity, how interested would you folks be in a resident-based method of storing inventory?

I have asked this before.

Because it is proving difficult to get LL motivated, I've been kicking around this idea for some time. I wish to create a prim import/export tool. Such a thing would be for "Modify" objects only, and would allow storage, viewing, and hopefully modification in Blender.

At this time, this would just be for untextured prims. Because scripts, sounds, textures, and animations can all be stored offline in some form already, they are not of huge concern (arguable). Prims are, however, as I know a lot of people work hard on their builds.

This project was intended for a month or two back, but I got buried in work both for my summer classes and the Game Dev contest. I'm still considering such a tool for Blender, which would be enabled through an LSL script and imported/exported through a Blender-Python XML-RPC script.

In English, it would require a connection into Second Life that we can create as residents.

Thoughts? Or should I not bother and push for an "official" bit of storage? Optimally, work on this would pick up at the beginning of August.

------

As for asset decentralization, as noted I think blaze is right on point here. I just hope in the long moves that these hassles become more of a moot point.

Um... Because we are paying very high charges and for the levels we are being charged we should be able to expect rather more in the way of consideration from LL?

And if they stop trying to protect IP, it will undermine one of the cornerstones of the business model. It also does nothing to address the issue of inventory protection.


So instead of devoting IT resources to building a better server network and more reliable backup, you want LL to devote more resources to TOS enforcement? Weren't you saying in other threads that they aren't doing that to your satisfaction, either?


I have a great idea. Instead of relying on the customers for backup of their own stuff (90% of whom are non-IT inclined and the other 10% back up our own content anyway), why not have LL -- the people who own the network -- improve their own infrastructure and backup support?

Inventory loss has happened countless times in other games and worlds. It will continue to happen because no system is ever perfect. In the best systems, the company has a copy of your inventory compressed and archived somewhere that could be anywhere from 24 to 96 hours old. CS personnel can also search these archives to find items and verify or restore lost inventory. In many cases, the company reimburses for lost inventory without even that much hassle if they perceive that the customer isn't gaining an unfair advantage.

In the case of SL, the technical problems are complicated simply because of the volume of unique data - prim descriptors, textures and scripting are not standard. They cannot be encoded into 2-byte keys. Data backup will be an expensive and time-consuming process. But those same conditions make it even more critical that it be done correctly, within a robust system.

For the record, I've lost items as well. I have sets of shoes with one shoe that poofed. I have scripts that aren't there any more, including commercial items I've purchased which worked fine until 1.6 and then came up missing one script. I've been lucky in that most of the merchants I've spoken to were happy to help replace the missing items. And I always make my own scripts and textures offline before I upload, so I take some personal responsibility as much as I can. But none of that should let LL off the hook for having a robust, reliable backup system in place. OR for providing sympathetic response to customer complaints when inventory is corrupted.

Yesterday a friend of mine told me she couldn't accept some landmarks I sent her, because her inventory would not store them. I was puzzled, and asked her why. Her inventory is way beyond just disorderly, it's so badly corrupted that she is unable to save items, notecards, or landmarks to it. She's had items go directly to her Lost and Found (where they're liable to be erased). She appealled to LL a few days ago and has YET to receive a response other than "we're working on it". This is the other side of this issue, which is really two distinct issues: Customer Support sits alongside good IT practices, and they work together. But one without the other is useless.

Client-side backup of inventory doesn't even need to be encrypted -- the only thing it really requires is a good digital signature. Strong hash algorithms are out there (LL even provides access to MD5 from LSL), and once something is digitally signed, you cannot change even a single bit in it without completely changing the signature.

One problem with client-side backup would be dealing with items that are no-copy/transfer. If it is in your backup, but not on the database, did it get "lost" or did you resell it/give it away?

- Jon

Yeah, there is one... I just looked it up, it's prop #315. It proposes that we be allowed to download inventory to disk so we can work on it and then re-upload it, and keep copies in case of accidents. We need to draw people's attention to this, so it can get as many votes as possible. This is a feature that we badly need, ASAP.

I've known two people that have lost most, or all of their inventories. One was eventually restored for the most part by LL. This was about 6-7 months ago though, so not sure if they can restore them now. The other never got anything restored. Definitely a bit scary, although in my case, it might be the only way my inventory will ever get organized or managable.

I thought the same thing David, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. In most cases the object names do not disappear. Your inventory appears to be intact until you go to rez something, then you get a DB error message.

So you have to rez each and every object in your inventory to discover whats missing. I gave up on that months ago. I just assume anything old I have will not rez, sometimes I am pleasantly suprised.

I've had this too recently but only only with a few things. No fun.

I wouldn't want to have to store my inventory on my computer, cause I can't access anything on my computer while the game is up without huge and time-consuming difficulty.

Even just uploading a texture - my computer will do that for a while, then it just stops, and the "uploading" message stays up, and I have to log out.

If I try to do anything IN my own computer texture files, like move one, while the game is up, it takes ten minutes, minimizing the game to do it.

What does it mean, the landlord may have "half-inched" your inventory?

I lost some things moving when my landlord returned all items to me, too. But what does "half-inching" mean?

coco

Cockney rhyming slang. Half Inched = pinched ... ie, stolen