The Magicians and the Audience

Creating things for use in Second Life is inherently immersion destroying at present, owing to fact that none of the creation process is done in a "simulated 3D evironment" manner. Building in SL involves the use of immersion destroying dialog boxes, rulers, menus, etc. Clothing design, animation, the creation of sounds, and all the rest of the creation processes are even more incompatible with the feeling that one is a living actor engaged in real interaction in the Second Life pseudo-world. Continuous explanation to others of how to use the interface and perform the creation processes also destroys one's ability to see the 3D immersed viewpoint, thus making the volunteers in the Live Help, Mentors, Instructors, and Greeters groups also incapable of proper immersed enjoyment of the virtual world.

I thus suggest that we recognize the division of Second Life users into two groups, which can be thought of as the magicians and the audience, or the realistic and the immersed,

Those who choose to be immersed will use a modified form of Second Life that allows creation but only through immersion compatible methods. This would mean that if one wanted to produce, for example, a wooden cube, one would need to get out their virtual ax, find a virtual tree, and start doing some virtual chopping. Then virtual pruning, then virtual slicing it up, virtual sanding, etc. Preserving the familiar processes of material change to as great a degree as possible will not simply preserve immersion but will instead greatly enhance it.

Immersive clothes production, for example , might involve virtual weaving of simulated thread at a virtual loom. Virtual yarn and virtual needles would allow for virtual crocheting, darning, and needlepoint.

Immersive surface texturing would be done with inworld paint brushes that one would dip into virtual paint cans, then carefully applying with in an immersion inducing wax on wax off manner.

Those are just examples of the idea of immersive creation, they might not be practical to implement. Immersive creation, though, would have to be limited to processes that could be simulated fluidly within the context of the 3D virtual world, and not require the use of any external software, and as little 2D interface activity as possible.

None of the immersive creation processes would break the paradigm of being your avatar who is really living in the world of Essel. None would engender the cognitive dissonance that results from trying to pretend to be in the world of Essel while simultaneously alt tabbing to Photoshop and Poser and SciTE and so on in order to create another illusion to amuse and astound those who choose to stay immersed.

The magicians, the people who use the science and technology and sleight of hand to produce the illusions for the immersed, would have SL available to see the results of their work, but wouldn't use the SL interface as a primary means of collaborating with each other because it is woefully limited in capabilities and very tedious to use. Instead the magicians , or content creators as they are more commonly called, would use videochat, voicechat, good text chat programs like Trillian, and other collaboration software that allow far more efficient communication than Second Life does.

Since these people would not be pretending to be an avatars and would instead just be being themselves they would not use avatar names but would instead use real names and not hide from each other, which would facilitate such things as entering into binding contracts, and put an end to at least some of the personality warping that occurs when all interaction is anonymous.

WoW

you're joking right?

next we will need to shower and eat, and use the restroom too?

should we get rid of flying and teleporting because that is not real as well?

now if you were complaining about the lack luster UI i agree, but some suspension of disbeleif is very acceptable.

I actually think some of these idea's are actually really worth implementing. The whole paintcan idea for inworld texturing would be a really big boon for a lot of new users.

By lowering the requirements, more people can participate in the creation side of SL -- which is it's real drawcard.

Sounds like the beginning of creating an elite class (FIC) and the under class (everyone else). The elite class will be able to use the tools to create in SL and the under class will have to be consumers.

I wonder who will be in charge of letting those into the elite class and banning those from the elite class?

actually, this would be a clever way for content creaters to "support" the community (I know touchy subject in a post DI world)

for instance, lets say, I make couches (or vehicles, or pre fabs, or hoochie hair, or sex balls, whatever)

the $L should have a gift certificate value, used for product, that content creaters can cash in and other users could "work" for in the traditional mmorpg "grind" setting

for instance, I have a lime green couch i make, and a resident wants one

Lets say I charge $L200 for the couch

Lets say LL issues $L50 gift certificates out per hour "worked" in SL

thats where the grind comes in

4 hours of work for a player to "earn" enough to make the item

maybe a couple hours simulated "painting" the texture, cut down a tree and build a couch by mashing the mouse button and walking from point A to B or something, you "earn" Linden gift certificates that can be used to purchase items from content creaters

content creaters can then use this cash to pay for tier, not cash out.

i am sure it has the potential of crashing the economy, but it might actually attract and (more importantly) retain a user base

I know MMORPGS and when done well they are like crack, very addictive, as long as things to do are provided

give people a useless way to occupy their time and they may just stay, or have addition inspiration to create themselves. it will fill the void left from DI, reward people aside from money chair activities (or money ball or nakedest nude bling contest or whatever) and endorse creativity

I know one non content blogster who would flip out at this suggestion, and it could further devalue land if content equaled a widget

but admission charges might also be a way and put it to the test with an option for people to "work" instead of shelling out RL cash

or rent...

BTW this is stream of thought and not very well thought out. The OPs post triggered my imagination

Um. That's an MMORPG.
They don't sell well.
Or they do REALLY WELL, but not on the margins the company wants, so they scrap it make a straight fighting game out of it.

Look, a couple of the reasons MMORPGs work is:

#1) they are addictive and not solitary. they are social yet you are on your own

#2) they provide limitless things you can do to entertain yourself

SL lacks that. WoW has 5 million users. they know what works and "hooking" the user is not something SL is very good at

most people who stay see SL for its potential, rather than what has been realized, on both users and LLs part

if you want to hook the more casual user, give them an "objective"

even if, instead of a level and new sword, you give them a lime green couch and lower that developers load a little bit

For me there is nothing less inspiring then repetitive virtual asset mining.

Yes. I can start that commodities market my roomate was wanting. She thought we really WERE DOING THAT STUFF ALREADY.

I'm like... um... no. You summon plywood cubes from thin air. You can FLY. You don't really NEED anything in SL.

*yawns*

Strongly disagree.

The tools of Second Life do not break immersion for me any more than would - were I suddenly transported to some fantasy world - the appearance of dragons.

It is true, they serve to make SL unlike "reality", but I don't think making the default for all SL "strong mimicry of reality" is necessarily worthwhile. Keeping some minimum Earth-like feature for the main grid, certainly. The sooner people cope with being in a world where violating the law of conservation of mass/energy is something you do casually, the better, in my book.

Which is not the same as making the tools we do have less esoteric, mind you - any complex tool is going to have little tricks to learn, but SL has way too many.

Content producers, alienated by intimate knowledge of the underpinnings of the Second Life illusion, unable to enjoy a night at a club, for example, because they are mentally estimating the number of open listens and pondering the effects of the particle display on those users suffering from Celeronism, grow bored and discontent. Some fall prey to the delusion of personal superiority known as wuism. Others seek more financially rewarding methods of earning an income such as getting a part time job. at a video store.

How then can we combat this rising tide of declining immersion?

Immersion failure is caused by the difference between reality and the virtual environment. Since producing a sufficiently real pseudo-experience to maintain immersion seems to be a hard goal to reach, one could take the approach of altering one's real experience to more closely resemble that which occurs in the virtual.

The alienated, immersionless SL user might equip their car with a device that intermittently applies the brakes at times, and varies the fuel flow to the carburetor sporadically. This would simulate to some degree the jerky stuttering some users report occurring when they try to move through the SL virtualscape.

Ejection seats working in conjunction with GPS systems could toss the driver and passengers from the vehicle when crossing local political boundaries, simulating the experience of crossing a sim border when cruising the SL autobahns.

Recent advances and cost reductions in thin, flexible and in some cases even sprayable display technology, coupled with head tracking sensors, would allow object surfaces, such as, say, a piece of wood paneling, to display the intended surface texture only after spending between 1 second to ten minutes as a gray surface with a white outline.

Advanced heads up display technology would allow one to have their visual field repeatedly blocked by dialog boxes announcing something you would rather not have known.

It is not only advanced technology that can be used to simulate the Second Life experience in the real world. Simpler forms of technology can be applied to the task as well.

For example, floors, streets, and even the ground itself could be equipped with undetectable breakaway sections, allowing one to fall through unexpectedly.

With sufficient effort and ingenuity, one's real environment can be made to resemble the Second Life environment in such a manner as to make the transition from RL to SL virtually seamless.

I, for one, can hardly wait.

Suezanne, this is brilliant. I want red ban lines IRL!

However, I think your initial plan unfairly penalizes content creators by effectively shutting us out of the very reality we ourselves build. It ruins my immersion to type numbers to indicate a "cut." I want to see my avatar holding a saw! Similarly, "linking" isn't immersive at all as it works today. I want my avatar's tool belt (the inventory window sure isn't immersive!) loaded up with superglue and a hammer and nails! Color picker my patootie -- give me a can of paint!

Keep on fighting the good fight, Suezanne! Hooray for TOTAL immersion!

Oh yeah, aight. Aight, I put on my robe and wizard hat.

I think it's a brilliant analogy even if I don't agree with some of the comments made.

And I don't think the division is as cut-and-dried as you've described. Some folks I've met have made loads of stuff and yet they can turn that all off when it comes to making things. Some folks have never made anything and yet can't enjoy any in-world event because they're using Edit Linked Parts to view each bit with a blue highlight and whining and/or ragging on themselves for not having created it themselves. It matches the analogy exactly: many magicians can and do enjoy watching other magicians perform even if they know how all the tricks are done, and at the same time, many non-magicians hate watching magicians because either they feel stupid for not knowing how, or they feel stupid for knowing how and not having been able to succeed by doing so. (The UK is particularly bad for that. Just ask David Blaine...)

The problem with the "in world creation" processes you describe is that they wind up with the same products as the out-of-world creation processes but take longer and give inferior results. If there was a seperate category of products that were created by the in-world means and could only be created by those means, then I can see that being an excellent idea.

The fact that ability to create is still the "killer feature" of SL is a serious danger because the actual ability to create in a valuable way only gets harder over time. Access to that feature gradually erodes as more people succeed. Of course, we can't tell people to stop succeeding, so we need to find something other than ability to create to hook folks..

I am curious if anyne else makes up in-character explanations to explain how they create limitless things out of thin air.

All of my creations come from advanced nanotech as described in "The Diamond Age".
I however, am from Victorian England. Hence, I'm a time traveller.

-WW

After being here for almost two years I've heard many explanations for this. Even folks who seem to think this is some giant computer game with 3D building tools in it. Heretics.

My mom wrote the following a while back while she was describing her account of The Great Erase:



I think the addition of the Lindens' Grid has enhanced our ability to form matter. It has brought many benefits as well as constraints. Grandma Thetan is especially angry that we can't see the real stars. She said that no one is fooled by the random star pattern that the Lindens display in the interior of The Grid.

Nice reference.

SL is a lot like Dark City. People change personalities and professions frequently. Even the landscape and buildings around them are transformed before their eyes.

So.. am I the only person in here who actually find dialog boxs and mouse cursors to be even more immersive then RL mimication? c.c

I prefer to RP most of my interactions with people as realisticly as possible, accepting that stuff like flying and teleporting are forms of magick that I and others in this reality can do. No, it's not 'realistic'. But I find it acceptable for RP purposes.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having several sims that were strictly sandboxes - places where a content creator could go, and make stuff, and not feel that they need to be 'in character'. Right now, I tend to do most of my creating inside a large enclosed dojo that is part of my home, simply so I don't have to do it out in front of everyone.

When I am interacting with people, I smooth over a lot of the 'instant creation' instances with chat dialog, such as 'Ceera goes to the kitchen and returns with a tea service, which she sets on the table before you', after which I rez the tea service on the table. If I had a tea set that offered a 'carry the tray' animation, I'd use that instead. But since I don't...

Interesting. Going on the assumption that you weren't being satirical here... I think many ideas you post here could be implemented in-game, without Linden help - you could duplicate many functions of a MMORPG-type crafting system or a "The Sims" type game - You attach your HUD and your saw, Click your "saw" action, are given a rough plywood cube, use your "sand" action. I don't think we're going to have the possibility of a GUI that will make this really intuitive and truely what I would call "immersive" without force-feedback gloves or other technologies that aren't mainstream enough yet... A GUI is just like a different language or culture, and your going to have to learn how to play the game and "speak the language"...

I mean, I can play WoW but it's not the "Gee, this is realistic" immersion that I get from it but it's the "Gee, this is an intricate and pretty beautiful fantasy world", "Gee, the interface is pretty simple - I just learned how to fish in 15 seconds and I'm not wearing a box on my head" types of immersion. I am happily immersed in being me in the real world playing a virtual character standing there in an alien world, able to conjure up and transmute bricks and put scripts in them to cause them to do my bidding.

While part of me thinks this is a good idea as a whole... Another part of me sees many brilliant ideas within it, but at the cost of officially dividing the community.

I am always perfectly serious. The only thing even vaguely "humorous" in me is aqueous, vitreous, or upper arm bone.

Would force feedback glove controllers be good for immersive content creation?

ummmm..... yeh-esss!

"MMORPG-type crafting system" - I didn't say anything about that, that is just something that people that don't understand what immersive creation means say.

Imagine being able to chisel out your stone scupture using your feedback gloves and your mallet and chisel sensor implements - screw up, chip off the statues head - just hit backspace. Stone sculpting with a backspace. Mmmmm, it's enough to make your head spin. Best not though, it might involve quaternions.

Re-chisel tills it's just right, then...

Change the material to soft clay, pickup some vr sponges, and texture the surface lightly in a few spaces.

Then harden the material to make sure you don't mess it us - yeah you could backspace , but you might not notice as you move around, since your av body would deform it if you bumped it while it was soft.

The pick up your vr airbrush and go at it - need the paint to be pulled some way other than down, just adjust the gravitational field , maybe apply an electrostatic field to the statue to modify the paints path. The vr paintbrush is synched, of course, to the Wacom air brush controller you hold in your force glove. It's just easier to work with something with the right weight and feel in your sensor-gloved hand.


Enough of that.


It's interesting that one person mocked eating in a virtual world while another person described the chat they use during an unrequired "tea ceremony" to compensate for SL's inabilty to simulate such an activity realistically.


When I started my original post it was supposed to be shorter and be a response in a different thread. While writing and trying to get the spelling errors and grammar up to a non-repulsive level the other thread changed from stupid on one subject to hateful and boring on a repeat of another thread that was already hateful and boring and just a bunch of personal attacks.

I didn't want to stick my post in that cesspool, so I gave it a thread of it's own.

Yumi got the main real point of the original post, which has to do with alienation from the vr world.

The second one is nonsense, an attempt to make fun of the flaws of Second Life by exploring what one would have to do to this nicely operating physcial reality to screw it up to make it work as badly as SL.

The part of my second post that I liked best was 'How then can we combat this rising tide of declining immersion?"

If the tide is rising, shouldn't your degree of immersion be increasing?

anyone who approves of this obiously hasnt spends DAYS fashioning that plywood cube into a massive neo goth castle, letalone down to the cm. Or spent countless hours scripting that dialog box to do its 40 menu functions just so the user doesnt have to learn a 3 mile long list of "/109 i suck at ui" commands in chat.

You wanna cut down trees? go play horizions or ultima online, see how many months you can stand saying "yep mining the ore for this breastplate that +1 better than the one i have now."not to mention the 2 months of armorcraft skill you have to earn failing at lesser items)

yay my al is 1 point higher after 4 months of work, whack dead

this coming from a person who played asherons call from 1999 till 2005 12 hours a day.

Science quiz: What is the densest biological material?