Frustrated with haters

Thanks for the kind words - although with a feature like this, benefits are really easy to come up with. That's why I'm amazed some are so staunchly opposed.


Welcome to the team! Its a really cool feeling getting your first Apache server up and running with PHP. Sort of like completing your first really good SL build. Allowing us the freedom this does will open things up in all kinds of new ways. I, too, hope we get a lot more than just the base Mozilla - being able to use Firefox extensions within SL, for example, would be very cool!

Regards,

-Flip

That doesn't make sense. if they are good enough to read the SL Client code and understand it in order to make modifications to it AND they could read and understand the Mozilla code in order to integrate it with the client, it seems hard to fathom they would not be able to understand the client code enough to fix bugs. How do they fix the bugs they inevitably had in the first stages of integration? Hand it off to the bug team and stand around with their thumbs up their collective a**es because they are so specialized they can integrate but not debug?

So using the separate team logic, and your conention that the mozilla integrating programmers could not fix bugs, leads to two conclusions....

1) Either LL was paying a bunch of programmers who only had skills in this area and who were unable to fill in with other areas to sit on their hands until the project materialized.
2) LL hired a bunch of folks just for this project.

Either way, money could have been spent better by either...

1) dumping the highly specialized programmers that can't fix bugs they had on payroll awaiting this project
2) hiring more bugfixing programmers instead of fluff programmers.
3) Reassigning the project programmers to bug fixing groups.

Yeah, Mozilla in SL has got a lot of geekiness to it...some of you sound like you're getting off over a brower you're so excited. Personally I don't care what they do with it, as long as they fit in a switch so the client works as it did pre-integration. I run in a window, would rather have it open my default browser and tab out to it rather than have the window ingame and have to keep moving and resizing it to get to things underneath when looking up things for scripts. Ease of use over geek-geewhiz!

I'm glad that you've highlighted all the benefits. I was beginning to wonder if maybe I was missing something that could be useful about HTML on a prim. Now I definitely know I can live without it.

Anyway, stop being so defensive. You web designers are gonna get your HTML on a prim regardless of what the vast majority want.


Get em Lewsi!!!

For Pity's sake... SL is a shark... if it doesn't move forward it will stagnate and die.

I, personally, can't WAIT to start converting the gobs of annoying pop-up notecards in the Particle Laboratory over to something more visually appealing and visitor friendly like nicely formatted html pages viewable IN WORLD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FlipperPA Peregrine
(7) Building in-world tutorials with rich media will be incredibly easy with HTML.




SAVE THE TREES. The only thing I've printed up in the last 2 years are e-tickets. Print is dead.

I know of no RL nerds that are so anti-new-feature.

Have you considered changing your name to "Lewis Luddite" ?
It actually has a rather nice ring to it.

What is unknown right now is how much we will be able to actually interact with the browser object itself. I don't know if everything is going to have to happen using the new llHttpRequest functionality, or if we will have access to the document model of the browser page itself (which would be ideal but is a lot to hope for). All the things you are hoping for do hinge somewhat on how much feedback we can get from the browser itself when things occur on a web page. I am hopeful that these capabilities will expand over time.

Exactly!!!

If you give HTML to a shark then it would just become a big nerd and all the other sharks would beat it up!.

Maklin-

Sounds like you've never been stuck maintaining a large complex legacy application. Fixing bugs is easy.

Fixing bugs without BREAKING EVERYTHING that has been built on and around those bugs in the time since they came about is HARD.

Integrating something new is, by comparison, far far easier than it is to correct something old with compex webs of dependencies upon it.

And you're just the person to create the shark to do it!

You are a rarity. I personally print everthing, as do most the IT people in the office where I work....easier to look down at a printout and then back up at your screen than to flip between screens to read HTML or DOC files. I can read the printout in places I can't take the laptop, the printout never has to worry about batteries going flat when there is no AC outlet nearby...and best of all, in a business environment, a paper trail cannot easily be obliterated by bosses (unlike digital files and emails can be).

Print is HARDLY dead, except among techies trying to look cool to other techies.

Never said that, the poster I replied to was saying the programmers COULDN'T do it, and their presence would have a negative effect...like they were somehow hyperspecialized to the point bugfixing was like a whole other profession (comparing customer service to an exec position) I am saying the roles are NOT that far apart and if they can tear apart legacy code (layer after layer) and stick in new code and fix the bugs THAT makes, they should be just as competent doing debugging of the original code.

Never done it in a BUSINESS environment, not interested in being a coder for a living, but have maintained legacy code for about a decade now in the rather cryptic language used on the old-time text-based MU*'s (multiple inter-related programs). I agree it can be a GIGANTIC pain to fix bugs...but it was no harder adding features without breaking things than it was to fix bugs. Both seemed to require extensive study of the original code.

I am not just anti-browser (even though I find it to be an extrordinarily lightweight feture compared to say the lighting changes). I am against ANY new feature (including the recently redone lighting...as much as I love it and the HUGE speed increase I saw) that takes priority over some of the wonderful bugs in building, the crashes to desktop that can be recreated, the UNGODLY poor framerates some card variations get. Fix first, add later on a WORKING foundation.

Its more fun and glamorous to work on new features, they are techies after all, but they need to prioritize better than they do. Bugs first, featuers that improve playability second, fluff features like the browser last.

In world video? Fluff feature, yeah though nice. Flexible prims? The same. Even just integrating HTML into their interface has improved playbility benefits. They will be able to replace the clunky Find dialog that is used now with a web based version that can be updated separately of the client, so features can be added to it on an ongoing basis. An example of an online environment that make excellent use of an inworld browser from a playability standpoint is There. Almost everything you do, from renting places to shopping for clothing to managing groups is done through a browser based system in world. SL by comparison has a horribly clunky, outdated interface that is much more Maya than Mozilla, and that is a bad thing. Extensibility is key, and the browser has instant extensibility by its very nature.

Having spent the past 10 years as a software developer myself, I am with Flipper - I can't remember the last time I printed anything, and I read volumes and volumes of techinical documentation all the time. I don't even have a printer hooked up to any of my machines, I would have to search through the closet to find one to hook up if I ever needed to print something. I guess it depends on the developer. It is certainly not about trying to look cool, it is about what works best for you. I find paper documentation frustrating and prefer to read documents on my Tablet PC or onscreen on my laptop. To each their own.

The in-world browser would be a great benefit to documentation - I would love to be able to get more information about something in a nicely formatted HTML document, with images, links, etc.. than in some clunky ass notecard with no formatting.

I think they should add basic html support to the notecard viewer, myself, and have it support linking content in SL by uuid by expanding upon the secondlife:// protocol thingy. It'd be handy, as the browser would then be able bridge between sl content, and the general web nearly seamlessly. And to trump spam, a notecard can pop up and parse html correctly, unless however, if theres an external link (not one to say, another notecard uuid, or ingame texture by uuid), it would require a user to permit it to pop up. It would prevent having hundreds of 'gateway' notecards from being dropped on you. Thenagain, undoubtedly it would create more strain on the asset server. It'd still be damned neat to have.

I just think it would be insanley cool if I could make a notecard, dump a bit if html code into it , creating nice looking card 'page', with formatted text, and pictures in it that are refrenced directley by uuid, along with links to other notecard pages. Enough of this 'linked notecards open new windows' junk. Then toss in the xml-rpc and http support in lsl and you could create the illusion of having intergrated pages in items. Also, since the browser is in-game and tied to the client, I think a more simplified event scheme could probably be devised. Really tho, it would be handy to have a nice html based gui pop up when you click on an object or something. It'd definatley beat having to stick more stuff on the HUD.

Ah dreams.

There is a 'turn-off' feature. Pry off your damned f1 key if it bothers you so much right now.

oh god just imagine that a sleek interface in flash that allow you to configure your item and then send back the configuration to the item with an xmlrpc or maybe a secondlife://

would luuuv it!!

That is what is so exciting about the possibilities - it opens up levels of interactivity and presentation in SL that are either impossible or are substandard with the built in SL toolset. Pulling up a web page in SL is nothing special - having a fully integrated web-SL interface suddenly brings the full power of web servers, external databases, and the wealth of Internet technologies to SL in a very tangible way that is just not possible right now without it.

zomg tis is teh wrust idea evar it wil riun SL!!!1!!1one!

There. Now Lewis needn't post anymore. It's covered.

How many people here turn off local lighting because their graphics card isn't up to it?

How many people don't use ripple water because it lags?

How many people have their draw distance set to 64 instead of 256 because they'd rather have a faster framerate?

So why is it apparently such a crime to ask for the ability to toggle between an inbuilt browser, and the external browser of our choosing?

All I'm asking for is a choice. It's clear LL aren't going to abandon an integrated browser, despite the inherent risks that still have not been addressed, so why force people to use a program that they have chosen not to otherwise?

At least when someone sends me an email telling me to open this link, or to verify my bank/ebay details, or that someone needs to move $45,000,000 out of somewhere in Africa and I'll get a cut for helping them, then I have a choice to open it or bin it. With HTML on a prim, that choice is removed from me.

It's really not that complicated a question, or obscure a request. I just hope that the relevent Lindens take it into account.

Lewis

As long as it is a no bake!

Alt-tabbing from a 200mb program to a 65mb web browser tends to cause computers to grind to a halt. This is alot of fun.



Are you suggesting that it is fun and enjoyable to browse the web by taking screen captures, editing them, and uploading them? Second Life is a collaborative experience. This whole upload click thing destroys the collaboration and turns it into a slideshow. It's sort of like the One TV versus have everybody watch the same channel in their homes idea. Your suggestion is like streaming media in prim versus streaming media "gee everybody can open quicktime anyway" argument.



Have you ever used eBooks? I'm sure that you print those out, first thing.

-

I think that the potential of the html on prim thing lies in client side scripting, which LL hasn't really provided up to now. Flash plugins and such are really client side applications that let us communicate with each other in ways not immediately sanctioned by LL.

Up to now, all our content and collaboration happened through LL opening specific abilities to us. With Mozilla, we can share stuff that isn't limited exclusively by LL. This is a first step in being able to write plugins for SL, something i've been waiting for.

This is all rather dependent on the implementation of html on prim not being terrible, but nonetheless, it looks favorable.

The possibilities?

Multiplayer games that aren't as slow as as LSL ones, games that are for once, really playable. Shareable workspaces, with flash, you can write a paint program, and many users at once can use it together to make textures. The ability to finally do things dynamically, and present things that change, and move, instead of remaining stubbornly still. Giving a presentation that you can edit on the fly with slides.

All of these things become possible in game.

Your arguments (in that post) for not including HTML on prim is basically that "you can do this outside of SL with a chat client, a web browser, a two by four, and a plane ticket, so don't bother doing it in SL because I only use it to chat."

I believe in the discussion they already said they'd include an option to turn off automatic html loading due to privacy concerns and ips and such, and set it up like the existing 'streaming media on parcel' is set up.

They see me rollin'
They hatin'
Patrollin'
And tryin. to catch me ridin. dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty. (Chamillionaire)

My computer is fairly low-end comparitively - yet I still get 10-15fps without any problem outside of malls, casinos and tringofests, and don't grind to a halt when alt-tabbing. Perhaps you should try Windows mode instead of fullscreen?



I've never found a desire to watch 'streaming media', partly because a lot of it is illegal rip-offs of commercial movies. I don't understand your 'screenshots' analogy though.



Personally, no.



Ever wondered why they aren't sanctioned by LL?



... and also allows griefers to write plugins to steal passwords or otherwise disrupt our online experience? I certainly don't want to spend ages downloading plugins everywhere I visit, from unknown and untrustable sources.



I can't particularly see any favourable advantage in this. One thing that springs to mind is that if you wish to host things yourself, the bandwidth consumption will be beyond most of the free/low cost hosting services and you'll have to pay considerably for the privilege. Or, of course, you can just use the bandwidth you're already paying for with your premium account with Second Life.



Yes, I can just see a serious multinational corporation allowing its staff to play a computer game under the guise of 'attending a presentation'. If you need to edit a presentation 'on the fly', that's merely down to being underprepared.



I just don't see the point in reinventing the wheel. There is an internet, there is Second Life, why waste effort making one do what you can already do perfectly well with another. This whole '3D web' thing is curiously nonsensical until we get holographic projection facilities for the average home user.

Oh, and to answer your other post:



That would be acceptable. Can anyone confirm that with a link?

Lewis

That wont be possible.

I hope they don't add another ugly control like the music control and the video control covering part of the world view.

In fact they ought to move the music control and video control off of the world view,

If i dont yet imagine all that will be made out of this new feature about internal web browsing, because of my own skill pool, i am sure the ones who know are going to amaze us.

And as far as i can see, i love to learn stuff, and what i dont understand today, i will, tomorrow, after a bit of mind job, and as i say in my Signature, in SL u dont levelup a character, you levelup a player. Evolve or die

So yes, it s true the very latest building bugs are a real annoyance (vanishing/reappearing prims and Taper going to 1.0 both axis) , believe me (i literally spit prims all damn time !!! But also, i know they will soon be fixed because Lindenlabs are a busy bunch and they do care for their baby, and i dont loose from view i might learn one or two things in the future to do MORE things in SL. I m happy =)

I LOVE SL, I LOVE LINDENLABS, I LOVE EVERYBODY

hehehhe

oh hmm a last word for ranters, dont forget we are the pioneers of a new kind of play, just that thought should fill you with joy.