Is this common practices?
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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
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04-12-2006 09:04
From: Guni Greenstein Amazing that this thread is still around. But, hey, it is Anshe on the receiving end.
Let me clear up some facts:
1. Before buying land, Ricardo received detailed information about terms and zoning rules, received detailed explanations and was asked several times to carefully review the information he was given
2. After the purchase he began to use the land. One or two days later he began to violate zoning rules and when politely contacted by staff he outright refused to respect any of the zoning rules that he had agreed to before the purchase. Instead he began to argue that because he "owns" the land, all the zoning rules given to him before the purchase would be void.
3. It is not true that when people in Dreamland move to a higher tier they are forced to double pay. We always make sure a refund is issued when somebody moves up a tier. This is generally settled in L$.
4. The mainland has rules and if you don't follow them you get banned and loose your land. Have you ever tried to host a swinger party in a PG sim? Or how about opening a Tringo club in Boardman?
5. Anshe took back Ricardo's land giving him a full refund of his purchase price, even though she was not at fault. Tier of course is non-refundable, neither on the mainland nor in Dreamland.
6. In real world terms nobody owns land in Second Life. At best it would go as a "lease", considering the high monthly fees. This applies to the mainland as much as it applies to Dreamland or similar places.
7. Zoning rules exist in Dreamland because the vast majority of the more than 1000 people who bought land there favor them as a feature. Not having zoning rules would be less work for us. So why isn't the terraforming set to Zero? |
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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04-12-2006 09:06
From: Frack Fackler Actually, the idea of zoning rules does appeal to me. I just dont like the idea of another player having direct rights to my land. I want to own it even if I am bound by community rules.
I could live with a communal system like a covenant agreement though. It's a perennial issue. The problem is that LL aren't really interested in policing however many square miles the grid is now for zoning violations. They stay out of matters like that. So the only way it can really be enforced is by one person owning an area, renting it out to others but kicking them out if they violate the rules. You can certainly have a mainland area where everyone agrees on a common standard of behaviour and keeps to it, but it often happens that somebody leaves SL, sells their land, and the next person to buy it doesn't care and puts up a load of adverts. Or they sell it to someone who sells it to someone else etc. And then you have no recourse. Unless you have a lot of long-term residents there, it can often end in tears. Welcome to the wonderful world of SL land politics... there's loads more of this stuff. But it mostly works out okay in practice. |
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Frack Fackler
Registered User
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 40
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04-12-2006 09:15
From: someone The problem is that LL aren't really interested in policing however many square miles the grid is now for zoning violations. They stay out of matters like that. So the only way it can really be enforced is by one person owning an area, renting it out to others but kicking them out if they violate the rules. Seems to me the problem could be solved by adding features to the game engine which allow players to collectively police the area themselves (like a homeowners association). It could be done with a simple voting system. If someone decides to put a garish spinning pink cube on their property, the neighbors can complain to the HOA. A 3/4 majority gives the HOA the option of ejecting the player from the community (Basically buying the property and banning the player from buying it again or something). It wouldnt be that hard to do IMO. There are similar systems in other games that seem to work. I think themed areas using covenants would make the game a lot more appealing for all involved, no matter what theme they like. I know I would want to tour a medeival/castle themed areas for example, even though I wouldnt want to live next to one. A *lot* of the mainland seems really chaotic and unappealing to me personally. It gives the newbie areas a real "white trash" feel to them that I didnt like. But I did find a few areas that looked pretty cool, so I can live with the current system. |
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Allana Dion
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,230
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04-12-2006 09:17
From: Blayze Raine That is a wise statement but the problem is, this is not presented as "renting". Its presented as "owning" which is not the case at all. I've never done this kind of business in SL myself and I've never even met Anshe Chung so I can only go on what I've read here.... But the situation sounds more like Leasing a property. With a Lease you pay a downpayment and a monthly payment. You have more rights than if you were simply renting (which would involve paying ONLY a monthly amount in L$ not US$) and yet not all the rights you would have if you owned it. It seems to me the company would be more honest if they used the word "Lease" rather than telling people they will be "owning". |
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Ralph Doctorow
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 560
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04-12-2006 09:31
From: Magnum Serpentine So why isn't the terraforming set to Zero? In a lot of Dreamland the zoning doesn't preclude all terraforming. The basic rule I think the OP ran afoul of was that you can't change shorelines without permission. The idea is that all the water in Dreamland has to be navigable. The other big terraforming prohibition is against "pancaking" the land into a featureless flat expanse. This is to keep an interesting topography. Minor terraforming within those limits is generally OK AFAIK, certainly if you ask an angel you can get it clarified. The goal here seems to be to keep an aesthetic world, and it largely works IMHO. These rules are very clearly stated in the notecards you get when you buy or rent in Dreamland. As others have said, if you agree to a set of rules, you actually do have to obey them, it's not optional. |
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Ralph Doctorow
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 560
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04-12-2006 09:39
From: Frack Fackler Actually, the idea of zoning rules does appeal to me. I just dont like the idea of another player having direct rights to my land. I want to own it even if I am bound by community rules.
I could live with a communal system like a covenant agreement though. IMHO the real issue here is that SL is pretty much an anarchy, with no laws beyond the TOS, and no enforcement, so the only way to have any rules enforced is by sim owners. There is no other mechanism for community rules. As far as some sort of home owner's association, I'd be pretty leary of that as well, there's a lot of mob mentality around in SL. Without any form of justice system to appeal to, this would have some real dangers. |
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
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04-12-2006 09:46
From: Guni Greenstein Amazing that this thread is still around. But, hey, it is Anshe on the receiving end.
Let me clear up some facts:
1. Before buying land, Ricardo received detailed information about terms and zoning rules, received detailed explanations and was asked several times to carefully review the information he was given
2. After the purchase he began to use the land. One or two days later he began to violate zoning rules and when politely contacted by staff he outright refused to respect any of the zoning rules that he had agreed to before the purchase. Instead he began to argue that because he "owns" the land, all the zoning rules given to him before the purchase would be void.
3. It is not true that when people in Dreamland move to a higher tier they are forced to double pay. We always make sure a refund is issued when somebody moves up a tier. This is generally settled in L$.
4. The mainland has rules and if you don't follow them you get banned and loose your land. Have you ever tried to host a swinger party in a PG sim? Or how about opening a Tringo club in Boardman?
5. Anshe took back Ricardo's land giving him a full refund of his purchase price, even though she was not at fault. Tier of course is non-refundable, neither on the mainland nor in Dreamland.
6. In real world terms nobody owns land in Second Life. At best it would go as a "lease", considering the high monthly fees. This applies to the mainland as much as it applies to Dreamland or similar places.
7. Zoning rules exist in Dreamland because the vast majority of the more than 1000 people who bought land there favor them as a feature. Not having zoning rules would be less work for us. My still existing problem with this is why are people told they are 'buying land' on a private sim when in fact they are sub-leasing it? They do not own it.... in actuality no one owns land in SL, they either lease it from LL or sub-lease it from a third party. Letting this slip by under the noses of new players is a poor business practice. Tell the truth up-front, explain the practice better, dont try to hide this fact.
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"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
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Nyx Divine
never say never!
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,052
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04-12-2006 09:54
From: Allana Dion I've never done this kind of business in SL myself and I've never even met Anshe Chung so I can only go on what I've read here.... But the situation sounds more like Leasing a property. With a Lease you pay a downpayment and a monthly payment. You have more rights than if you were simply renting (which would involve paying ONLY a monthly amount in L$ not US$) and yet not all the rights you would have if you owned it. It seems to me the company would be more honest if they used the word "Lease" rather than telling people they will be "owning". Yup you've hit the nail on the head
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Melonie Giles
Lala Land Lover
Join date: 7 Dec 2005
Posts: 101
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04-12-2006 10:08
I actually like renting. I rent from some good people really good people. They don't have you BUY anything up front. Why in the world would anyone rent (They call it Buy) a place you have to pay an upfront cost for I will never know when there are plenty of places that are actually renting just a week to week bases, and you don't have to fork out a lot of lindens up front. Only your weekly rent. This is more of a legitimate practice I think. And I don't have alot of rules to follow concerning the land itself.
These people that have you pay 2000-6000 or more lindens to get started and then charge week to week are being greedy and want a return on thier investment fast, but it will cost them business when people catch on.
I am just glad I realized quickly before I even rented anything that the ones that say buy are still rent. Ive seen a couple people confused about this.
Only downside to renting is if the owner of the land has to sell out or decideds one day oh i want everyone to move so I can make this sim into a game....that can kinda bite for renters.
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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04-12-2006 10:13
From: Guni Greenstein Amazing that this thread is still around. Why? I guess hiding the truth about dodgy business practices would be good for you, yes? Don't like the truth, change the rules. Don't silence people from making others aware of what goes on. Lewis |
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Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
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04-12-2006 11:02
This thread appears to be a private dispute/discussion between two Residents, as such it's being closed. Forum Guideline copied below for your reference: Private discussions – the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life. Also, threads that are addressed to a single individual or group are inappropriate on the forums, this includes slander or "naming names" in a posts title, starting polls about a particular resident or group, etc. |