The United States VS Second Life

There have been a number of interesting discussions recently about areas that Second Life might fall prey to US Law or politics that would then destroy Second Life. Three vulnerabilities I could name are child play, underage children engaging in mature activities, and gambling.

I find all of these interesting and I do have opinions on how vulnerable Second Life might be to each. But I'm curious, what other vulnerabilities or potential vulnerabilities does Second Life have?

I'm not saying the following are real since they are just coming off the top of my head, but there might be a potential with money laundering, massive IP theft or perhaps organized fraud and crime (all these actually sound unlikely to me).

What are some of these potentials and how real are they?

Interesting question.

Offhand I can't think of any others, but I would like to say that I think one major potential danger is simply the inability of most people to believe that it actually could happen, regardless of whether it does.

We (U.S. citizens) reside in a young police state, and most of us are under the impression that we live in a democracy -- that we ever lived in a democracy. That's a dangerous (to the individual) disconnect between perception and reality and can easily lead to gross errors in judgement in these kinds of matters.

I do find it bizarre that everyone seems to take it for granted that the first lawsuit to come along will destroy SL. I could name a few corporations that have never been sued, but you'd never have heard of them -- any corporation I could name that you'd have heard of has been sued many times and is still around. Most corporations survive most lawsuits just fine...

By "child play" I assume you mean age play. Why is that a vulnerability? It's not illegal for adults to wear diapers and suck their thumbs.

Not sure that any of these make sl vulnerable until rl interferes.

SL sex is really just two ppl sitting at keyboards writing risque words at each other and watching low grade moving porn. Can't imagine that being illegal.


Underage children will do their best not to seem underage. Many adults are probably less mature than most kids on sl. Parents who let kids have networked pc's in their bedrooms are probably the cause of this problem. However, not really a problem until they meet in rl. Of course, then it is a major problem.

Child play is again adults saying words to each other and watching pictures that would not make it into any respectable sexual journal because of their low quality content, not because they are too risque. Illegal?

Gambling would only be a problem if the house moved the money out of SL. It is not regulated on SL so the odds for most players would not be good, and eventually players will wake up and stop. However, most would be playing with Lindens provided as part of their stipend. Is this already illegal? This may be SL's most vulnarable point.

Just my 10 lindens worth.

Ed

I wasn't thinking law suites, but instead criminal charges or threats thereof that would allow the state or the feds to shut second life down. But now that I think about it, there is also the possibility of a civil action that gained an injunction to shut SL down.

I was actually wondering how the recent online gambling bill that cleared the house, if signed into law will affect gambling in Second Life.

It is my understanding that the bill basicaly prohibits US banks and Credit Card Companies from sending money to gambling sites (most of them offshore).

Now Second Life isn't a gambling site, but gambling happens. Though we gamble with Linden Dollars, those can be purchased and sold for real currency.

It may be one of those grey areas that may or may not be addressed in this peice of legislation. Lets just all keep quiet about it and not tell any feds that we gamble here. Maybe the won't notice us...

I agree what you described is not illegal, but there are solid arguments that using graphics of children (i.e. child avatars) engaged in sexual activity is stepping over the legal line. And remember, it's Grand Jury's and Prosecutors and Judges that may decide what side of the legal line SL child play lands on, not us.

I think there is a precident for drawings or not photoreal art being legal in the USA no matter what it depicts because the subject does not represent an actual victim. Although some states still have "decency" laws..

Actually, there are precedents for exactly the opposite, many courts have decided that ANY image of children in sexually explicit poses is illegal.

I knew about that and using Poser, it makes me ask "Why are there naked kid models here?" They lack genitals which may be why, but still, I'm surprised no "do-gooder" has done anything.

As far as SL catching flak from the gambling laws, etc...... I doubt it would happen too easily. Ever try explaing SL to someone who's not computer literate?? Most of the law makers in this country are clueless old geezers who dont have a single clue how a computer works much less whats on the internet. All they know right now is "MySpace is full of child predators!"

There would be limits to what would be consituted as illegal. Because if the activity in-world were considered illegal then you have to charge all Counterstrike players with murder or homicide.

There are limits.

However there will be problems with "ageplay" pedophilia because it's the imagery itself that's illegal. Gambling might also be problematic because there is a host-managed method of converting the in-game currency to real currency. Had all the means to convert L$ to US$ been outside LL then gambling won't be a problem at all for LL.

As for furries and Goreans, I think there's no problem there.

@Tod69

Poser would have kid mannequins because poser was made to assist artists with the creation of scenery involving people. For example you can't make a kiddie birthday party scene using adult mannequins, the proportions are way too wrong. Mannequins also must not have clothes because one cannot presume the clothing that the characters in the finished image will be wearing.

There will be a massive, heavy handed, resounding wake up call someday.


People are so used to getting away with things, and watching others do the same that they think laws don't apply to them.

Not in the USA? Well, you had better not ever plan to go, if the Feds decide that you are in violation of federal laws.




- To the IRS, income must be declared and taxed. Any. Income. At. All. "Innocent before proven guilty" does not hold true with regard to tax law.

- Gambling, by whatever means, is unlawful in most places in the United States.

- Minors and sexuality - This is deadly serious stuff and carries enormous penalties, plus registration as a sex offender. Save the forum posts - if you crossed the line in a judge's mind, you are in a heap of trouble.

Think the Feds are naive when it comes to the internet? Think again. This is the organisation that quips 'we must have won the war on terror' because they spend so much time hunting down stuff like this.



Lastly, do you think the Company will:

a) spend a fortune on attorneys to defend your unlawful activities, or

b) turn your lawfully subpoena'd records over to Feds in a New York minute?

My 2 cents:

SL (or LL) should not be liable for anything individuals do within their realm. I don't know if that's the law, but to me, it's common sense. Individuals are responsible for their actions.... SL is not an enabler, or a haven for illegal activities.... It's simply a medium where there are limitless possibilities.

All gambling in SL is illegal... but what does the whole world of SL or the company LL have anything to do with it? The individual or company that owns the casino should be held liable. SL is not FOR gambling, LL is not promoting SL as a gambling racket, SL has nothing to do with gambling.

---Example: In RL, when the casino control commission finds a slot machine that is a scam in one casino, they don't shut down Las Vegas.

Another example: When a child wanders onto a porn website, and passes through the 'must be 18' warnings, and enters; the porn website is not shut down.

---- the only aspect where I would see LL being liable in any way is when they choose to take an indifferent stance and not be proactive to prevent illegal activities. Without proper warnings, LL is taking a risk. The laws that pertain to RL & SL need to be clearly defined for all of us to follow..... because currently, most people don't even think SL gambling is illegal.

.... remember about a month ago when LL started cracking down on copyright infringements..... I bet LL was contacted either by a powerful company or the agency that protects copyrights.... so LL stepped in for a lil while and made it public knowledge, began correcting, posted information, then backed away because copyright infringement is a user to user issue....

I would like to point out that there is a difference between being convicted in a court of law, and being shut down. The latter is much easier than the former.

And also note that the law can be used as a tool of power. For example, a friend of mine owned a BDSM club a few years ago. He paid his taxes, paid his rents, the businesses next to him had no complaints. But then the mayor of the town discovered the club was in his town. He declared that no such club should exist in his town and had it shut down within a week on a number of legal technicalities. Never went to court, the owner couldn't afford it.

The point is that Second Life can be vulnerable even if the grey areas we have been discussing would not be found illegal after a court trial.

(grabs soapbox)

For one, I am here to tell you the US gov really could care less about SL. Second the gov is only concerened with all interent related things that have to do with ACTUAL REAL CHILDREN being messed with in an inappropriate/illegal way.
Ok, underage children, as LONG as SL does everything they can to prevent these underage from coming on here they are covered. And as long as wortheless actual pedos dont' attempt to take advantage of underage. Which I don't think they will do on the orginial SL, but on the Teen one only.
And last but not least gambling, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

I think there are certain risks people take, especially with the age play thing. Frankly seeing an underage looking avatar engaged in any sort of sexual activity would send me running for the hills and anybody who engages that is at risk, since federal laws on that are quite clear-it is verboten. While Second Life itself is not at risk since it can simply forbid it as a TOS addition, any members engaged in this can be subject to prosecution should someone in law enforcement decide to go there. The gambling I see as about the same-I wouldn't bet the ranch on a gambling establishment, and again, Linden Labs can roll over and wouldn't hesitate to ban that with a TOS addition. So while I agree with Marla's concerns I feel the game itself is safe, since by TOS additions it can be "held harmless".

The laws are clear that it must be an underage person, not illegal if they are of age and appear underage. It is quite clear. But I would not disagree that one that participates in age play will be held to closer to scrutiny than the one that does not..

The US hosts many of the servers for the internet in its borders, the EU has been trying to get them out of the US and into another country, so even though they will push the buck, they will go only so far on regulating it.

Key phrase: "engaged in sexual activity". Let's not assume that the majority of age players are having sex. If they are, that's another risk -- but not LL's risk and not ours, it's a risk specifically for those engaged in such play.

Actually the US and other countries are working together when things are going cross countries.

Perhaps for crimes that takes place upon real children and please remember that what is illegal in the United States is not illegal in other countries. Also what is illegal in other countries is not always illegal in the United States.

I just don’t see any judge in Japan or most other countries letting the United States extradite a resident of Japan for role playing on the internet. It is not going to happen. If it is photos of real children engaged in real sexual activity then it is different. It is my understanding that the criminals in America get in trouble when they show up at the residence or meting place with what they think is an underage person. It is at this point they are charged with a crime. Thus it is not the internet but the meting with intent to commit an indecent act that is criminal.

Here's an interesting question, if you earn money in Second Life, but live in Japan, do you owe US taxes? Do you owe Japanese taxes?

It's simpler for us in the US, we definitely owe it.

they aren't going to extradite or even be interested for anyone role playing.. meh that is silly..

you are correct on the meeting place thing.
But there is actually an international task force for the internet and child porn..

hmmm.. have you read the laws governing what can be taxed and what can't? I would do that first...