Insane builders PART II

I'll be honest and say I'm not sure what my opinion is on this and I'll be honest and say I have bought a couple of (very nice) chairs from Troy's store. Well my alt bought them. She often does things without asking me first.

I've resold things that I had bought elsewhere at the occasional yard sale but I mark them lower than what I paid for them. Not because I'm trying to undercut anyone, but because I see them as "used" and because in my mind the point of a yard sale is to offer buyers a better deal than they'd find any other day of the week. Towards the end of the yard sale, when I'm getting tired of having it, I'll even sometimes start marking things down ridiculously low. Really I don't see it as taking anything away from the original creator. It is something I used and enjoyed and don't need any more and I'm selling or practically giving it away to someone else who might enjoy it. Hell a couple of times I've had customers show up in my store saying they bought something I made at someone's yard sale and wanted to see more of my stuff. That felt pretty good, almost like I needed to thank the person who had the yard sale. I didn't but I thought about it.

Bottom line I'd say this is still very different from the practice of taking something that was intended to be free and charging an arm and a leg for it. This is buying something low and selling high, can't really say how I feel about that but I don't go buy my coffee in columbia as the OP stated either.

I would ask Troy a question and maybe this is what it boils down to? If the creator had simply come to you and said, "Look, I don't like this, I'd like you to stop reselling my things because I don't want the price to be that high and I don't want them sold outside of my own store." Would your answer have been, "It's my right, to bad" or would your answer have been, "Ok fine, I won't sell your stuff anymore, I'm sorry it upsets you."??

Checking the "Resell/Give away" box merely allows the item to technically be transferred from one user to another. It's not an indication that it's OK to appoint yourself as distributer of someone else's product. The only way to know if the original creator doesn't mind it being resold is to ask.

Personally, I think it's ok sell items you don't need or want anymore in the true yard sale fashion. But, making a business out of doing nothing other than, reselling other people's stuff for profit just doesn't seem right to me.

I dont see any problem with reselling nocopy stuff unless its a freebie.

if u dont want it resold, make it no transfer.

i dont understand why peeps get so upset about it.

More grist for the mill.
Explain why the current argument is just like/nothing like the ideals put forth in a normal EULA, (not SL's which is VERY libertarian.)
Explain.

This seems sensible to me. I hate it when I have something nice I would like to give to someone and I can't because it is non-transfer (and when I bought it, I bought it cos I liked it not with a view to giving it away).

or kill them all now and worry bout it later?

Meh.....

I think some egos get involved. If I buy an item that's a no-copy/transfer, I see absolutely nothing wrong with reselling it at whatever price I can get. The original creator got the first sale, and I got the item then or at a later time. In RL, if I buy something, like a CD, a book, a car, or something else I'm not allowed to copy (due to copyright, patents, etc), I am fully-allowed to sell the item itself.

People have gotten upset about it, but the law has been made clear in the U.S. that I can sell the original item. I can't copy and sell, but no law prevents me from selling the original. So what if I mark it up? The price is stated, and it's the buyer's choice to spend the money. I don't need anyone's permission to resell the item.

If the original creator doesn't like it, sorry, but I"m not ripping you off because I'm not making copies, just selling originals. You got paid on the first sale.

RD

I think I take the same view as you Jon. In the real world, creators have negotiated agreements with distributors, who typically have legal agreements with their resellers. That's not happening here.

Given the fact that the permission system stands in as a light legal system within SL, and until LL creates more granularity on transfer settings, if you create something and make it transferrable, you should expect it to be resold.

The practicalities of this do not excuse those who want to resell items on a recurring basis from their moral obligations of reaching out to creators.

I have no problems with informal yard sales in SL, just like in RL, as long as the seller makes it clear that they are not the creator nor are they representing the brand of the creator.

If you are talking about a formal distribution business, and not a one-off yard sale, then you really should get permission.

In SL, second-hand objects remain shiny and new, in rl, they do not. I see no problem with selling second-hand products, but I feel a little more uneasy about people reselling wholesale. When a major electrical retailer sells Sony products, for example, they have an agreement with Sony to sell the items based on that agreement. If that retailer started to sell Sony products at a price they did not like, or marketed their product in a way they did not like, Sony would simply stop supplying the retailer. It's impossible to compare rl with sl.

To me, it's not an issue of law, but one of eithics, and that's an area of opinion. With more granularity in permissions, the content creator can make their intentions clear to the buyer.

Troy,

My opinion is, if you were selling a one-of item that was set as transfer only, I see no problem with it, nor should the artist. The moment you give that permission, you give up the right to say, it may not be transfered again. That is just the way the system works and LL will not take action on anyone's behalf because the permission transfer means just that. The creator gives permission for it to be transfered. The rub is with the "for resell" part of the button which should have been separated off a long time ago.

That said, as many artists DO have a problem with it, I would suggest that you enter into agreements with the creators from now on with things you see and would like to feature. One thing you didn't point out is that in the real world, retailers do not pay full price. They pay wholesale, then the item is marked up to a "suggested retail price" by the creator, generally 50% over wholesale.

By doing this, the original creator is selling at the same price you are or slightly less depending on how much mark up you want to make.

LL has promised and promised a rework of the permission system so that content creators can allow either resell or transfer without resell of items. Until that time comes, assuming is never good. Even if 99% of the time the creator will say yes, its ALWAYS nice to be asked first. Doing so saves you all this headache, and would probably net you more in terms of profit on your resell.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

Yes, but who's fault is that? The reseller is responsible for a buyer's poor assumptions?

Plus, as mentioned, the creator's name is there in the item for anyone to see with a click of the mouse. If the creator wanted to they could put a notecard in the item with more information (like a landmark to their own store and their price for the item).

It's not necessarily a poor assumption. It depends on how the item is presented to the customer. Going to a "yard sale" or some place called something like "Uncle Phil's Resell Outlet" would indicate that most stuff there wasn't made by the owner.

But, if I go someplace with a typical name like "Uncle Phil's Quality Goods", see something for sale, and don't see any signage or anything else to indicate it was made by someone else, then it's not unreasonable to think that "Uncle Phil" made this thing. And if it's inside a vendor, I don't think you could even check for yourself.

I don't think all resells are bad. I don't have an adament opinion on it yet, but making a business out of it without consulting the creator doesn't sit well with me.

There's a difference in SL because the distribution chain is weird. RL stores negotiate contracts with their 'content providers', but it's not to get permission. What they're trying to negotiate is being able to buy goods *cheaper* because they plan to do a lot of reselling.

In this case, Troy isn't trying to get a price break from the original sellers. Value for such things is uncertain in SL to establish a standard discount, plus he's not getting the sales volume to back it up. So rather than haggling over a percentage for one-time vendor space, or renting out corners of his store for permanent vendor space, he went for the markup.

Is that wrong? I don't think so. Maybe he'd make the creators happier by checking with them first so they can be sure permissions and descriptions are set as they should be. Nice, but he's not obligated. He's already said he would remove items if the creator didn't like having them resold, he's not obligated for that either.

As an aside Troy, banning the drama-mistress is fine, but an AR? For a personal dispute?

Reselling is just another part of life.

I ask a certain price for my products, when I get that price, I'm happy. I know for a fact I can sell my items for twice the price I currently do because I used to do so easily. I purposely cut the prices of my items in half so more people can have access to them instead of just selling them at a higher value "because I can".

When I get the asking price for one of my products, I'm happy. What the person does with it afterwards is entirely their business, I might have built it but they own it. If they want and can resell it for even 5x the price, more power to them, and they're welcome to come and buy more of my stock to resell. I get my price, they get their price, and the consumer gets a product they were willing to pay the listed price for.

It's impossible for me, or anyone else for that matter, to "lose profit" on an item listed at a price they agreed to sell for.

"Guess I'll have to make all the items I ever make no-transfer, a shame since I won't be able to offer refunds. I just don't like the idea of someone profitting off of something I worked so hard to make"

If someone is successfully reselling something that you made for a higher price, one or more of the following is true:

1: you sold the item for a price that was lower than the customers consider reasonable.
2: your methods of selling (store design, store location, advertising strategy, etc) are not as successful as the reseller's.

You are left with the following options:

1: remember that you're getting the sales you were hoping for at the price you set anyway, and the reseller making extra profit on top of that isn't harming your income in any way, shape or form, and reflect this realisation in a peaceful and happy continuation of how things are.
2: talk with the reseller and see if you can't work out some kind of partnership, using your products and his obvious salesmanship.
3: rant and rave like a loony, acomplishing nothing.

Musuko.

I phrased most of this post in question form. I'm not really trying to pick on you, it just seemed easier to write this way. Of coarse all are free to respond.

What would you do if you found out someone set up a shop where all they did was nothing other than buy your products and resell for double the price?

Ok. So what would you do if this person didn't make it clear they weren't the original creator? What if people confused this other person with you thinking that they're just an alt of yours? What if this person gave horrible customer service? What if they told people "screw off, not my problem" anytime someone made an inquiry? What if someone started IMing you outraged at your bad service? What if people demanded refunds from you for broken things they bought from someone else? What if people started calling you a scammer because "you have two shops with different prices and refuse to support customers at the high-priced store"?

I've seen seller's complaining about some of these things so they can and sometimes do happen. These are reasons why I think those who are going to go into business reselling other's stuff should ask the seller first and honor the seller's wishes if they say no.

Troy,

Does your shop have a sign in it stating that many of the items found within it are not your creations? I'm curious because you keep stating about how it is just like doing resell business in real life, well going to a resell shop in real life you would know that ahead of time. In here people may not know that and may like to know that ahead of time.

I wouldn't do anything. They're still buying my product and contributing to my business. The only place they can get my products to resell is from me. I'm not losing any business, in fact, I'd be gaining business because my inventory would be in another location which I don't even have to support.



My name are my items as the creator, that's all I need.



It's not my place to do people's thinking for them.



It's not my place to run other people's businesses for them.



It wasn't my service, whether someone thinks it was or not is irrelevant.



I don't issue refunds period. But all my items come with a Second Lifetime gaurantee, if it breaks, I'll replace it..... whether you bought it from me or someone else doesn't matter, because the original *did* come from me and is still covered by the warranty. All my products are no mod, no copy, and tightly coded. If you can break it, I'll fix it or replace it.



Again, it wasn't my service, whether someone thinks it was or not is irrelevant. If someone wants to call me a scammer for something I had nothing to do with then it's their karma they're harming. For the products I sell, my store is highly recommended by my customers and one of the best.



As far as I'm concerned, I have no rights to say what someone does with my products after they leave my shop. They bought the product. They have the right to use it, resell it, delete it, or make a profit off it. That's business.

Lillani, thanks for the reply.

I think I understand where you're coming from. When somebody buys something, it's now theirs to with as they please and it doesn't matter if the creator likes what they do with it or not. I get that and generally agree. There are some exceptions though. For example, items that need to be sold full-perms to be most useful (i.e., textures).

Hopefully you can understand though that resellers have the ability to cause problems for the original content creators. Maybe you can brush those things off easily, but it would upset others.

Jon, meet the "First Sale Doctrine" (as codified in Section 109 of the US Copyright Act). Wikipedia summarizes "First Sale Doctrine" as, "the doctrine of first sale allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e. sell or give away) a particular, lawfully made copy of the protected work without permission once it has been obtained. That means the distribution rights of a copyright holder end on that particular copy once the copy is sold."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

In other words, under the law--as well as the SL permission scheme, Troy had every right to resell what he purchased.

Troy,

Could you send me an in-world landmark? I'm not really in the market to purchase anything at the moment but these ill informed opinions in this thread is making me sick to my stomach and I think I need some retail therapy ISL this evening to combat it would be advisable.

I sell artwork (RL Photography) ISL. I freely invite anyone who'd like to resell my work to come to the Farlight Gallery located in my picks and choose any of my photos located in the gallery (hint: right side) and mark them up for resale once they purchase. I sell them -copy+transfer so they may be given away and even sold.

-KM.

People are insane Troy.

Makes me wonder what part of RESELL/TRANSFER don't they understand?

Personally, I make my own stuff to sell, but if someone bought my products and was able to resell them at a profit, I say more power to 'em. I'd probably raise my prices and thank them for giving me a better idea of its marketable price.

But then, people will biatch about anything these days. I can't wait for the asteroid to hit and give them something to REALLY whine about. heh.

WRONG IT WAS MARKED RESELL/TRANSFER!!!!! THE creator should have put a sign up in their store saying plz do not resale my items.

Let me ask you this do you ever resell anything you purchase in RL? I totally agree with Troy, what is wrong with you people just because you made it doesnt mean you can control who gets it after you sell it! I see people like this in RL too but most of the time all they do is bitch because so and so bought this and then resold it at a higher price.

This is to anybody that has a problem with resaling items in world. Why does it matter if somebody buys something and then resales it later for a profit or a loss? You got your money from the original purchaser. I understand customer support issues can be a problem but if they have the item and can prove they have it then what is the problem? If I buy a transfer house from person A and decided or realize its to small/big for my parcel I am damn sure gonna resale it and I will price it a big more than I paid and be negotionable on the final price!


I guess once you buy something its suppose to just sit in your inventory and create virtual dust!!!!!!!!! And to think people bitch cause the system is laggy guess that 500 prim house in my inventory waiting to be rezzed has nothing to do with it!

ah ok. I didn't know there was the ability to mark it up resell, I thought we only had transfer perms.

I don't think very many people feel the need to have manic control over what happens to the things they create and sell. The issue is more-so-much about sellers wanting to have some control over how their product is distributed and less-so-much about how users (customers who bought the product to use for it's intended purpose) decide to pass it on.

Some sellers may not give a rat's behind that other's are reselling/redistributing their product as a business. If that works for them, then so be it. The point is, some might have an issue with this, for various reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that.

This issue is a little more complex than simply "it was sold and you (the seller) lost all rights to what happens to it no matter what". There aren't issues with every single instance of someone reselling another's items. There are potential issues with someone doing it as a business though.

You do raise a good point. If a seller doesn't want their products resold in this fashion, they should clearly state so. I would add that, likewise, a "redistributer businessperson" should check with the seller to see if it's ok.