Linden Lab and reverse engineering (libsecondlife)

If Linden Labs approves, then the fact that it is against ToS is a moot point, which keeps being drug about like a dead man being pulled by a horse. It does nothing useful, and it doesn't look very good, either.

As for the people who think "if this functionality was meant to be used by everyone they would have already built it in"... Where do we get new features? After all, everything that should be in the game should already be there. If it isn't there right now, obviously it doesn't ever belong.

They broke the TOS, admit to ignoring the TOS, and should be banned. No questions asked. Now, if LL ever put them on the payroll and gives them the last name LINDEN, sure...fine...they then have AUTHORITY to do what they want. As regulary players, I see them no differently than a griefer (since griefing is against TOS), except that the Lindens unfairly let them get away with their violations.

Rules are rules and should be equally and fully enforced across the board. Any theoretical or actual assistance they provide, and their motivations, should in no way mitigate rule violations. Otherwise you encourage scofflaw behavior in society.

New features are new features... 3rd party hacks are not features, but exploits. If LL decides to add the exploit as a feature, that's their business. But I personally do not agree with distribution of software outside the SL domain for use with or in replace of the client.

This initial opinion has only been strengthened by the attitude with which the libSL "developers" have shown in response to questioning of their work. Which seems odd, since they are questioning the work of LL developers in their own endeavors. Ironic really.

They were granted permission to do it by the people who wrote TOS in the first place, though. And i figure between LL and the average users it's the LL who calls shots when it comes to how (and when) they choose to reinforce their rules, all circumstances taken into account. o.O;

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They were told by Phoenix Linden that the TOS will not be enforced if reverse engineering the protocol is not used to do malicious things.

It doesn't look very good to the ethically impaired (and I include those lindens that have helped them as ethically impaired). The TOS should be kept forefront, and perhaps someday, the lindens will develop just enough integrity to actually enforce it when its more than just convenient for them to do so.

Where do we get new features? From Linden Labs....there is no need for a band of hackers to be 'adding' functionality. We (at least those of us who are premium) are paying LL for new features, we hardly need self-appointed saviors to bring us features. If the lindens want us to have godmode...they will put it in and we do not need libSL.

If enough players express their opinion, perhaps higher up lindens will take notice. Things like this CAN be reversed if enough public pressure is applied.

Come on now you're embarrassing yourself.

Might be why you only see this openly mentioned on the forums rather than on the main website. Who knows.

Or simply providing an opinion. Seriously folks, nothing good comes from sarcasm and condecending attitudes.

No, I do not approve of hackers, and that is what the LibSL folks are. I am not going to sit by and not express my opinion merely because folks such as yourself find it embarrassing. The project needs to be under tighter linden controls (aka, a part of LL with accountability) or shut down. LL needs to stop running things like a OS hippie commune and run SL like a business.

And the only embarrassing things I have seen in this thread is the shameless self-aggrandizement and arrogance of the libSL folks and their supporters. Coders that refuse to explain and merely dismisss non-coder's concerns (or anyone's concerns)that are not OS fanatics.

That is all you will ever get from OS people. We're unenlightened, so not worth trying to address our concerns with anything except with ad-hominem attacks and sarcasm.

Not sure how familiar you are with the IT world, but in it (and especially the programmer community) there is a large streak of 'end user's (read non-coders) do not matter and their concerns are unimportant'. This streak runs especially deep in the OS community, with their 'OS makes everything better' mindset, so I expected nothing less and frankly a LOT worse.

I knew there was a reason I never bothered to speak up in the forums. Thank you for confirming to me that the proper place to be is in world.

could all the non technical persons leave the thread?
itsnot concerning them

This made me laugh outloud

OH! A stand-up philosopher in our midst!

You don't approve of hackers? Great, so you disapprove of people such as Ben Franklin, Eli Whitney, Henry Ford, the founders of Apple and Microsoft, a large percentage of IS/IT people, tech support people, network security people, computer science majors, Do-It-Yourselfers, and, in general, everyone who has an idea for how to do something new and/or different. In other words, everyone who has a hand in improving how things are done. Wonderful. You should step away from the computer, get rid of all your gadgets, gizmos, electric lights, clothes with buttons, etc, and go live in an Amish community.

Or do you mean the criminal "hackers" (sometimes referred to by honest hackers as "crackers"? You really should be more specific as to who you're referring to.

You mean scientists and inventors? And engineers? And mechanics? Thats what the people you list are/were. Not code hackers. You demean the people you list above when you even REMOTELY classify the behavior of the libSL or any OS hacker on par with them. Or are you using hacker/cracker as techie slang?

But we are talking hackers (Hackers/crackers, same damn difference...interfereing where they are not needed out of a sense of self-importance). You can try to pretty up what they do, but unless the intprop owner specifically recruited them to help, they are hacking. The first group you mentioned (scientists/inventors/engineers) we need more of, they either invent out of whole cloth or extend what exists WITHOUT VIOLATING RULES. The latter we need to crack down on.

Ahh, so those hackers that spend days working out and rebuilding open source software to get some feature or tool working better are interfering?

I imagine several of the coders at LL consider themselves hackers, too. Cory seems a very likely candidate. Lets remove all of Cory's work. *waves goodbye to LSL, for starters, it's a hacked together language*

Hear hear, as per the BSD license, I am closing the libsl source. Open source has given this project a bad name. From this point on, I will no longer be distributing the libsl source code, but will be distributing only binaries as to satisfy those opposed to the evil hacking ways of open source.

Without violating rules.....

Seems to me you're stuck on the concept of "intent of the law" vs "letter of the law"

Consider this. The libsecondlife people have the express consent of Linden Labs to do what they're doing.

Now, who wrote the TOS? Linden Labs

Who has the authority to alter the TOS? obviously, Linden Labs

Who has the authority to authorize exceptions to the TOS? once again, Linden Labs

The express consent of Linden Labs to do what they're doing, logically (since Linden Labs wrote the TOS and has the authority to alter, enforce, etc those same TOS) they are operating within the terms of an agreement they have with Linden Labs and thereby *not* violating the TOS, whether that agreement is known to the general public or not, which at this point, the agreement has been made apparent to those reading this thread.

Maklin: do you need me to explain the history of the term 'hacker'? It's not exactly "techie slang", as you put it.

as to the "interfering out of an inflated sense of self-importance", the term that fits that definition is "busybody"

As for your "OS hackers", sorry, but they're most likely sitting on Microsoft's TechNet reporting bugs and security holes. Those that aren't are writing books about how to tweak windows, or else writing linux code (or linux books)

as a quick note, I work in the IT field as a network admin. I'm not a coder by any stretch of the imagination (I could barely pull off "Hello World" on a Commodore 64, much less anything more complex). My expertise is networking, hardware and tech support.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you're stuck on the media's (incorrect) definition of the word hacker.

I'm glad i never actually paid for my godmode, though someone else did. It was given to me by a friend whoes friend gave it to him. Thats why i hesitated to ask for a update. Now that a free one is available with source, i don't have a worry. I support and could mirror a download for it, if given permission. Eventually LL will make the mapping issue server side so it will soon no longer be a threat. Basicly this tool soon will only be good for ajusting your camera and edit distance. Why pay for something that will soon be nerfed anyway right?

Get a dictionary. "Hack" has a really negative reputation that it hasnt earned. See also Google Hacking, SL Hacking (a book that's on its way i believe, also LL sanctioned), etc.

A hacker is someone who creates or modifies code to overcome a challenge, just to prove that they can, or just for the hell of it. A grey hat, as it were.

A cracker is someone who breaks security, defaces websites, and generally causes havoc and mayhem for their own personal gain. A black hat.



I'm firmly of the belief that if you have code on your computer, and have the time and understanding to shift that code around, then you should be able to shift said code around without interference. And yes, they are hacking. Not cracking. Theres a difference. Get it right.



Say bye bye to LSL (the scripting langauge) if you don't like "hacks". And probably most of the SL client as we know it.

For the 100 millionth time, Godmode and LibSL are approved by LL.

You can rant and rave about "hackers" all you want to, but they are operating under LL's approval (if not sanctioning), and are therefore not breaking any rules.

Please get your facts straight before you attack everyone.

Oh thats sad.. ok if you must. ;/ It isn't like many people would know how to mess with the source though.

Fine, then I'm taking my currently up to date SVN working directory and fork it to LGPL.