Shoe RIPOFFS! Have you seen these???

Also... just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's right or fair. And frankly, if I see the copies for sale, I'll let Estrelle know so she can appeal to this person's sense of decency.

LMAO, No, none of those shoes were made by me.
So, theyre similar, but why bother.
Estrelles shoes are obviously a better made shoe, but as Ravenous pointed out, his sister has similar shoes in real life.
As i see it theyre both strappy sandals with pink flowers on them, a million and one variations of which are two a penny in the real world.

This does beg the question: how many residents are doing design patent searches to ensure they're not accidently infringing on some real company's IP? I suspect that as more items modeled in SL are fabricated in the real world, that's going to become a potential issue. Not anytime soon for most. And the limitations of the tools narrow the possibilities quite a bit for now. But eventually the two will converge. That will be interesting.

I'm the columnist in the M2 mentioned. Here's the problem with this story as I see it: Knock-offs are endemic in RL, so it's not surprising to see them in SL.

If I were writing my column in RL and Ralph Lauren came to me (ha!) complaining that someone took his designs, changed them enough to get around copyright/trademark/whatever legal restrictions etc, and is selling them, I'd tell him there wasn't a story.

Does it make it right? No. But it's still not a story--UNLESS the person is selling his products as Ralph Lauren products, or copied them down to the last point. THEN it's not only a story but actionable, at least in RL.

In this case it would seem to me that the merchant's best defense is simply to continue to make better quality stuff than the imitator. You can continue to find out who it is, but in the long run I doubt it's going to do you much good, nor will it stop the person.

Next week's column is going to be about telling quality; would you mind if I used this picture?

I think what we have here is an example of why copyrights and digital media are still evolving together, and not always harmoniously. It's the 'copy' part.

It's not exactly fair to make a comparison between this and, say, the cheap knockoff purse in Reality. Because the cheap knockoff purse, while it might be slavishly duplicated from the Gucci original, is still an imitation, not an interative 'clone' of the original, as a prim model in SL would be. In Reality, it takes work to make a knockoff, but in SL, you can just make a copy. In this way, your prim knockoff actually IS the other person's original work. And you did far less work than they did, and even less than a forger in Reality.

That kind of theft simply can't exist in Reality, which is why it is still not recognized as a crime by some. It's so easy, they think they can make excuses.

The shoes are far from exact copies:

The Estrelle Fauna (EF) shoes have a white spike heel; the Unknown Creator's (UC) shoes have a pink spike heel.
The EF shoes have black straps; the UC shoes have white straps.
The base of the heel is narrower on the EF shoes than on the UC shoes.
The flowers on the EF shoes have a gemstone in center; the UC's shoes do not.
The flowers on the EF shoes are red with pink highlights; the UC shoes' flowers are entirely pink.
The petals on the EF shoes are slightly three-dimensional; the petals on the UC shoes are flat.
The EF shoes have a gem hanging on a chain from the top strap; the UC shoes do not.
The EF shoes have two smaller flowers hanging down from the top strap, between the larger flowers and the front and sides; the UC shoes do not.
The EF shoes have two small flowers between the center flower on the strap and the center flower on the center strap; the UC shoes have three flowers between those straps.
On the top strap, the large flowers on the EF shoes are aligned in the same horizontal plane; on the UC shoes one of the side flowers is top aligned with the top strap, while the other is center aligned with the top strap.
On the EF shoes, the small flowers on the bottom two straps are noticeably closer to the center flower than on the UC shoes.

The Unknown Creator's shoes may have been inspired by Estrelle Fauna's shoes, but there are signficant differences.

I think an abuse report will most likely be ignored by LL as there was:
1) no abuse of the SL permission systems (such as a copy item being "hacked" copyable).
2) no infringement of any real world design patents or trademarks, and
3) the original design _may_ not be copyrightable in the first place.

Under US copyright law, the "design of a useful article" is only covered by copyright in so far as they "shall be considered a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work only if, and only to the extent that, such design incorporates pictorial, graphic, or sculptural features that can be identified separately from, and are capable of existing independently of, the utilitarian aspects of the article."

This is why low-price knock-offs of high fashion clothes circulate freely. Unless a trademarked component (such as a logo or a specific trademarked visual element) is copied, there's generally no legal ground to sue under (or in this case, justifiy a DMCA take down notice).

However, SL is not RL--it is possible, that since the shoe in question exists entirely in a virtual world--and could not be worn by a real person--that the Estrelle Fauna shoe might be considered a “work of visual art” under US law, and thus be copyrightable.

But if you go there, lawyers are involved, and they are going to look at all the differences I cited above, plus the contractual agreements regarding IP in the SL ToS. And of course, in the first fifteen minutes of consulting a lawyer, it would likely cost more RL money than would be made over the lifetime of the shoe in question.

What I find interesting about these discussions is that there is very little talk about the demand side of the equation.

It completely fascinates me the extent to which people will buy crap just because it's inexpensive. I don't know how one could tell if they were doing that because they didn't know any better ... as in they didn't know that a superior product is available. Or,they don't care ... because for them the bottom line is that it's cheap.

Will individuals continue to copy designs? No doubt they will, just as long as people are willing to pay (less) for them.

If the marketplace in general refused to buy crap, they would eventually wither away. And, it would appear to me that the willingness to be seen wearing crap says as much about the buyer as it does about the seller.

Frankly, I've been simply amazed at some of the work I've seen ... between mis-matched prims and ill-applied textures made from low-rez images harvested from the net and not even straightened. And I've found that sort of workmanship in the most unexpected places. Anyway, I digress.

My point is that this sort of thing will continue for as long as there are people willing to buy "cheap" and be seen wearing it!

First off, I do not believe that Esterelle's design is an original, because most of the designs in SL are not originals. They're knock offs or inspired by RL items. Now I may be wrong so I go onto say:
I will give L$500 to the first person that finds the exact copy of the Estrelle shoe on a Real Life Shoestore website. Please post it in this thread to claim your prize. I repeat, it needs to be RL shoe, sold by a well known shoe reseller and/or company. If the said RL version is not found, the money is Esterelle's. I will deliver it to her in 1 week if no RL copy is found.

As for copyright infringement and lawyers. I am not sure the money Esterelle makes is enough to pay the $2000 a day lawyer fee. Good luck with that.

While what has happened to this talented designer is unfair and sad. It is not the first time nor the last time someone stole an idea and made it their own. Hello, how do you think the electronics business started in the Far East?

This is the world we live in. It bothers me that this can happen to good people but so is life.

Imitation is the best form of flattery. I don't care for shoes myself but honestly if I were going shopping for high heels in SL (don't hold your breath), I would still buy Esterella's version rather than the knock-off. There's a good rush you get when you purchase something that's really well made and is beautiful. Cheap knock-offs are like a bad one-night-stand.

Good luck...

Troy

How many nearly identical versions of the Little Black Dress are there out in the real world?

Doesn't the Chevy HHR look suspiciously inspired by the Chrysler PT Cruiser?

Take a look at Wolverine World Wide's Merrill shoe and go to a store and see how many of the same shoe you can find by other makers.

If none of these cases could be stopped in the real world, what makes you think SL would be any different?

And what amazes me is the extent to which people will buy crap just because it's expensive!

(Not talking about the shoes here, of course - they are lovely.)

coco

That having been said (or sung), I agree that the best way to combat this is to continue selling high quality products. Hopefully enlightened customers will flock back to your name brand because they know it to be superior.

This very issue has been beaten to death in various threads throughout the years.

Ya can't copyright a 1/2 meter plywood cube either. Custom textures/animations/scripts aside, the prim shapes and orientations themselves, being nothing more than a bunch of numbers that can relatively easily be exactly duplicated, cannot in themselves be copyrighted as far as I'm concerned.

:: eats a handful of popcorn :: Thanks Troy!

my 2 cents. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Or at least a way to make a quick buck LOL

Actually, yes it can. Even when companies seal mechanisms inside cases such that upon opening the device self-destructs, a working copy is possible. Just use the technology in a CT scan (I saw some really sweet cardio CT scans last week) to grab the 3D information, dump the 3D to a rapid manufacturing device and you're good to go.

Yes I have seen this shoe in another place.


Which brings me to my main argument. I would say 90% of the t-shirts in this game are from either liquidblue.com or tshirthell.com ripoffs. I have seen these shirts all over SL sold by half a dozen different people and I haven't bought a single one. You know why? Because I can make the damn things myself.

I generally apply this ability to make things myself to everything I see in SL. I can script and build and texture so I rarely have to buy a thing in SL because I can just make it myself. What is the point of paying 1,000L for a car/plane/house/whatever if you know how to do it yourself. This also applies in RL all the time. I know how to cook a hamburger so I don't have to go to McDs every time I want one. My grandma used to knit sweaters so I didn't have to buy sweaters. Someone knows how to make a pair of shoes so they didn't have to buy yours.

Has anyone even seen these shoes for sell? Maybe it is just some personal use copy so they didn't have to shell out the cash for your shoes that honestly anyone could make. If they are giving it to a couple of friends as a gift who the hell cares. Even if it was for sell I still wouldn't care. If you don't like it don't buy it.

Here is what it really comes down to. If someone can make it better and cheaper they can. That's capitalism. That's building a better mouse trap. Deal with it. I would also like to add 500L to match Troy Vogels offer because I am sure your 100% unique one of a kind shoe that no one else would ever dream to make someday has been done. In fact man-kind has been around long enough if we could find a ancient Greek version it would be even better.

Oh and The Simpsons did it.

Sorry this has happened to you.

this is the reason why i gave up on creating new product for a long long time, until my recent return to SL.

What I have learned and I know its hard to do, take it as a compliment. Does it piss you off, hell yes. More then most people understand due to the time and effort one puts into their business.

Anyways, I am sure you will find out who it was.


~tya

This is an interesting topic for this time of year... On the heals of the Academy Awards, there are a number of clothing manufacturers who pride themselves on creating knockoffs of couture gowns before the Best Picture award is handed out. (check out http://www.faviana.com/main_detail.php?val=1)

The "rip-off" shoes may very well be a "copy" of the original (which, based on some quick research, was certainly inspired by high-end designs such as http://couture.zappos.com/n/p/dp/9616964/c/50544.html or http://couture.zappos.com/n/p/dp/3922287/c/33072.html or http://couture.zappos.com/n/p/dp/9441585/c/19.html or http://couture.zappos.com/n/p/dp/8084841/c/46674.html)

They could have been made by an apprentice shoe designer who was trying to recreate the techniques of something they saw in game. They may have been made by a linden poor/time rich avi who wanted fancy shoes but couldn't afford to buy them. They may have been made by someone who saw a RL pic in Vogue or on the internet of a strappy sandle with reddish/pinkish flowers and was inspired. They may have been made by someone hell-bent on copying another persons creation and calling it their own (however, as someone who took a shoe making class at TeaZers and would rather stick a hot poker in my eye than ever try that again, there are easier things in SL to copy than prim-heavy tiny tiny shoes).

Just some thoughts...

Let's look at the facts.

High Heel Shoe. did you friend invent the high heeled shoe? I will hazard a guess no
Flowers Did your friend invent flowers? I will hazard another guess no
Flowers on the shoes. Did your friend invent the concept of putting flowers on shoes?
I am suspecting the answer is still no.

Sorry kid. high heel shoes. flowers and putting flowers on shoes is a common idea.
I know makes a person all warm and fuzzy to think they just invented the wheel but as the old saying goes "there is nothing new under the sun"

Oh I built a house last night and I noticed my theiving neighbors ripped me off and put a door on thier house just like I did. Oh the humanity. I want justice!
I bet tomorrow they will copy me and put a roof on it

Rox

Well, I'd never have seen the original pair by Estrelle without this thread and now I think I'll buy them, and would never have bought the copies since I'm so picky about quality... so there's one positive coming out of this, anyway...

If the original shoes were inspired by a RL shoe design, the copy is different enough looking in terms of the prims used that they may have simply used the same inspiration. However, if Estrelle drew the shoe off the top of her head and worked from her own design, I think it's safe to say the second is a copy.

I'd say "Wellington Rockwell" said it quite well....

With that in mind, we ALL have the same tools to make/design/etc... avail to us. There are bound to be "similar" items to ones that pre-existed.

Look at my account date....and think for a second. In that time just how many items that I have made or my friends with just as long of a creation date have had something (either by idea or design) replicated in some fashion?

Yes stealing sux, but you can't control the tastes and desires of others to "make their own" or yet even improve on your design.

If I had $500L for everytime someone copied an idea I had I'd be the richest in SL again

From experience in being in "your shoes" (joke intended there) get over it, you waste braincells and energy over something futile that won't likely change. If it does change it will change for the worse, as you put yourself in the spotlight someone will be even more likely to copy you yet again, and maybe with the exposure of your violation you may just open yourself up to a person that may out do you and ruin your market.

EDIT:
Just an after thought: Misnomer was like THE first person in SL to be officially recognised by the cumminity as the first clothier and shop owner of said items.....so in effect EVERYONE selling anything in mass is copying her....do you hear her complaining?
No, she keeps doing what she does best, or takes a break for a while.
Just make new and improved designs on what you already have if someone is trying to copy or out do you...tis all you can do and remain sane.
END EDIT

((the foresaid was in no way ment to flame/harrass/insult, was merely an opinion based on REAL experience in this matter.))

LOL Roxie. Thank you for speaking the facts! I would love to see proof of Estrelle name on the first pair of shoes ever invented and then I will be totally convinced she came up with the idea. LOL Estrelle, Get over it!! It's just a Game!! I honestly cant see you as the original shoe inventor. lol

To those that understand what it feels like I thank you for your understanding and support and for some really nice compliments

To the rest, I got over it 5 minutes later and laughed.

In fact I am laughing all the way to LindenX to exchange all the Lindens I made in increased shoes sales since the post went up.

So now I am LMFAO Man I love this "game"

I'll send you my bill for services rendered

Gotta love capitolism manipulation at its finest.

So, the publicity stunt worked?

Why must some few always be so mean in a forum.... I get sad and feel ”what an I doing in SL or in forum”...

No it was most certainly NOT a publicity stunt. I don't think Lizzie nor anyone in SL would go out of their way to help someone ELSE increase their sales.

A large number said get over it so I took their kind advice. I am OVER it so be happy!!

I am over this thread too. You can all speculate and debate from here to eternity might give you a purpose in life.

Cheers