IP Banning Useless.

As I can see from browsing certain other infamous external forums, griefers who are banned from SL with the IP/port ban method are simply bypassing it by doing spoofing tricks with their routers and network adapters.

LL, BRING BACK REGISTRATION VALIDATION PLEASE. LIKE, RIGHT NOW.

And another thing, the current batch of scammers are already whining about their names being shouted out for all to hear right here on the forums...witness the last couple posts of this thread before the lock. This boils my blood; the act of those who utterly disregard the law who THEN squat behind the letter of the law to protect their contemptible hides always has.

For pete's sake LL, can we get some controls to the influx of shameless idiots? Can we at least HEAR from someone, anyone in LL about all this? Why is this being totally ignored?

Unfortunately, it's not too hard to spoof CC #s either.

I'm sure...but then at least there'd be a case for credit fraud.

You can do it without commiting fraud really. There are totally legal ways to do it.

That's really beside the point.

Fact is, we need verification back. Some kind, any kind; I'd not be too picky at the moment.

C'mon, please. Very few people are going to bother to fake a credit card just to get into SL and annoy people. But many people will take advantage of an open registration system where all they have to do is give a fake birthdate and a email address. Witness: SL right now. Tell me it's no different than before 6/6/6. The verification system via CC# with real name and address was obviously keeping people from signing up for greifing/stupid reasons or because they were underage. But LL wants warm avatars, they want numbers, period.

That is not the issue. In fact it's a total irrelevance. It's always been possible to fake credit card numbers, but it hasn't been a problem in the sense that griefing hasn't been a major issue.

Now, it seems, following the new registration method, griefing *is* a major issue. So the problem is the new registration method.

It is? Daniel Linden seems to think otherwise. The recent scams were perpetrated by people born well before the registration changes which also doesn't follow.

You know, I'm just not seeing any real evidence past the "it's definitely worse" statement that it's become more of an issue. Is it group think that it's got worse, is it just that people are talking about it more or has it actually got worse? I'm just not seeing any proof of that.

Sure there are some jerks but then we've always had jerks.

The point is not that the scams were enabled by EasyAlts, but that the scammers knew that they didn't have to worry about their scam being interrupted or inconvenienced by bans. However, no, you're right, the fact that this scam appeared at this time doesn't prove that it's a result of no registration. Similar scams and scam groups have appeared in the past.

More directly connected to the registration issue though is the apparent increase in attack griefing, given that it seems that people who run the regular targets (furry clubs etc) are reporting an unprecendented rise in attacks since 6/6/06.

"apparent" is the operative word here. Furry places have always reported a high incidence of attacks as far as I've seen in my time here. And there are times when that's peaked above the norm as well, you know when Something Awful came in en-mass etc. If anything the Furries always seem to bear the brunt, for what ever reason and, although that's not good at all, does that really indicate a service-wide increase in attack griefing? In a perfect world nobody would get griefed, but there were griefers and scammers, and plenty of them, well before the registration changes. Oh, and we're all aware that the cc verification etc. did nothing to stop the likes of Plastic Duck etc. finding ways of getting back in quickly and easily.

The point is that this is all based on a very small number of days since the change and many of the conclusions I'm seeing are more "sky is falling" rhetoric rather than anything actually firm.

I guess those who believe that it's so much worse now think Daniel Linden is lying about it settling back down after the first few days of increase? I'm just saying, as the two points of view seem to be diametrically opposed.

Well, we've had two weeks now, and the furry place owners on the forums seem to be reporting a really unusual rise since that time.

There are various reasons that people have posted on the blog entry why (a) ARs received would not necessarily be proportional to population, (b) ARs are not necessarily a reliable indicator of actual griefing and (c) a rise in incidents will tend to be disproportionately concentrated around certain "high value targets" rather than spread across the whole grid, affecting everyone equally. There's little enough hard data to go on here, and I would be interested in doing a little survey of my own, talking to a few owners of such targetted places (furries, gay clubs etc) but the great number of anecdotal reported increases of an already high rate leads me to suspect that there might be something here.

Yes it has been two weeks (wow, that's gone quickly). To be honest, and I know one or two of the furry place owners that you're talking about won't like this, but they're the same people who are constantly talking about the large amount of griefing they get, so I'm more liable to take that with a pinch of salt to be honest for the context of whether things are getting worse as it appears they're always getting griefed going by what I read on this forum.

But is it actually trending worse over the longer term, or is it fear of it getting worse? And if it is worse, how much worse? Hard data is difficult to come across as you say and, to be honest, I'd prefer examples based on the general population, rather than one section of the population - a section that always seems to attract a rather disproportionate amount of griefing in relation to other sections and that is prone to concerted griefing waves as we've seen before.

I'm not dismissing that they get griefed, and I'm not saying that it should be ignored, far from it, but we all have to look at the whole rather than concentrating our reasoning on one specific section of the community.

ARs might not be a perfect representation but, to be honest, they're useful for showing a trend. If griefing was so much worse it would be reasonable to suspect that AR reports would also be growing in number but Daniel Linden's saying they're not. So no matter how accurate or not they are in terms of absolute figures, they're certainly useful for showing general trends.

In my RL I get griefed, if you like, every day by annoying customers who think the world revolves around them, or by people generally being arses, or by neighbours playing loud music, or by the police having nothing better to do than give me tickets for parking for 5 minutes outside my house (long story), or by sombody in the pub giving the impression that they haven't got two brain cells to rub together etc. etc. . The point is why is there an expectation that Second Life would be free of any grief when it's actually human nature for people to be arses, whether that's because they're socially incapable of dealing with others or because they're jobsworths.

We all get a range of it during the day in real life and, you know, it's even more difficult in real life to deal with because we certainly don't have the fairly fast acting, if admittedly incomplete, tools we have here.

I'm rambling, but the point is that I suspect many think that their Second Life shouldn't be interfered with in any way, like it's some sort of utpoia. It's not and it never will be. That's nobody's fault, it's just a simple fact of human nature.

Please try and get a grip on reality Moopf, rose tinted glasses may earn you brownie points with Lunatic Lab, but what use is THAT when SL falls apart?

Until I sold my Department Store (ONE in Honawan) last weekend I had approximately 3 times as many griefing incidents in the period FOLLOWING 666 as I had in the entire life of the store - that's some 6 MONTHS!

I don't know what the situation is with my old sim (Tompson) since I sold it the previous week as I haven't enquired of the new owner - but I suspect they aren't having much fun either.

And regarding you comment about griefer age, YES, all the culprits but 2 were older than 666 - but can't you understand what I already pointed out to you elsewhere?
The present registration 'system' has removed all constraints form existing residents who would have caused trouble if there wasn't minimal enforcement.

Think of RL - say, to pull a city out of thin air - say San Francisco declared that there was going to be NO further police or other enforcement of the law. Just how long do you think it would be before the city descended into mayhem? How long would YOU stick around? Would YOU be prepared to continue to PAY to live in San Francisco under those conditions?

Think about it Moopf - maybe you'll stop singing the Linden Company Anthem and wake up ...

hahaha, you obviously don't know me very well. Would probably be a good idea to look at how much I've ranted at LL here on the forums in the last 2 and a half years and how little I've actually supported major changes. Just a thought, for context, so you don't make wild, untrue statements. I've never tried to get brownie points with LL, but if I think something's a good idea I'm not blinkered enough to not state that.



Really? I dunno, I haven't encountered anything worse than normal. And I've had stores here for years.



Well you don't know, so anything you say is anecdotal or based on supposition.



Yes, but then why not just start an alt and do it with that in the first place - that would seem to make more sense than doing it with an existing avatar that you've used here for several months. Unless these are people who, you know, have always taken the piss and would always take the piss, cc verification or not



Well most people in real life seem to think this anyway! Ever tried getting some action for your car being stolen? I have in the UK and you just don't get any action yet, guess what, I still live here! House break ins the same. And how about re-offenders! But, your analogy is false, as there is law enforcement here and, in you stick around to find out, I bet that law enforcement gets better either directly from the Lindens or by them creating new tools for the community.



Yes, of course. Because I think it's a good idea I'm suddenly singing the Linden Company Anthem. That's a very mature argument against somebody who actually, for once, agrees with a change, rather than disagrees.

Doc you know, I can't remember you ever saying anything good about Second Life or the Lindens. So, I can turn your last paragraph round, and apply it to you just as easily. Maybe you'll stop singing the "I'm throwing my toys out the pram" song every 5 minutes.
But, you know, that's kind of pointless and childish isn't it and doesn't really add to the discussion

Well, my apologies if I got you wrong Moopf - but I STILL think you are just not seeing what's really happening.

Agreed I'm not one of the LL 'Fan Boys', and yes I have, as a paying customer, come down hard on LL when things have gone wrong, as I would on ANY company I was paying nearly $300 a month to who failed to deliver the service I was paying for.

What you seem to have missed is that I have ALSO given credit where credit's due, not often admittedly, because LL frankly hasn't been a good company to do business with, but I'm honest enough to give credit where it's deserved. NOT for providing the service I'm paying for, but for going that extra mile, or coming up with a good idea, which they have done now and again.

What's interesting though is that the current situation has even caused many of the committed 'Fan Boys' to deviate from their unswerving approval of all things Linden... Never mind, I suppose they are all wrong too...

As for chucking my toys out of the pram - well, if that's what you call complaining about the remorseless degeneration of SL, punctuated by regular bugs and problems, fair enough.

I can't complain much more though, because at the beginning of next month I'll pay my last tier payment, pocket my ill gotten gains (gains? wow, I must have sunk twice what I've taken out of SL into SL!) and fade away - currently my sole inworld activity is running a few traffic miners for the new store owner, tidying up my affairs and helping the new owner of ONE make the transfer of all those sellers - hopefully I won't suffer too much from the non-existent/normal levels of griefers (though last week I did end up three sims away while sitting doing nothing, and, in a separate episode, a 3 day old noob crippled the store for 12 hours by blocking both the TP system and internal stairs with prims...)

I really don't know why you have adopted this stance Moopf, unless just for the sake of debate?

Whatever - enjoy yourself.

No, I've adopted this stance after thinking about the changes in registration over the last couple of weeks. At first I kind of had the same reaction that the majority here appear to still be concerned by but as I've thought about it, I feel the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

As a content creator, I see a major part of Linden Lab's job as actually getting more people in-world. They provide the easy access, the influx, the awareness and I have a bigger market for the things I sell. As a result the platform gains greater acceptance, notoriety and expands the opportunities for everybody to have fun, learn, educate, explore and delve into their imagination.

As I've discussed with others on a different thread, I don't disagree that in an ideal world we'd have all the anti-griefing tools we'd need before they changed the registration process but that's not the way the real world works and business pressures often force decisions in the wrong, or what appears to be the least obvious, order.

Linden Lab also need the growth that I want as a content creator to (a) maximise their reach before a competitor steals their thunder and (b) to also help their bottom line as people either go premium, or rent from others or buy from the LindeX.

There's another reason why this has come now. Just lately I've seen Second Life consistently appearing in all types of media - New Scientist, on BBC TV, in Business Week etc. Eventually these places will get bored talking about Second Life if it kind of just stays the same. So changing the registration process gives people an even greater reason for trying it out and allows Linden Lab to maximise what coverage they are getting in the media. It's just good business sense to make the most of the opportunities offered. After all, it's 3 years old now, and it's getting late in terms of shifting it up a gear.

They know the tools aren't really available if griefing does get out of control, but I'd be really suprised if we didn't see the tools quickly follow. What I've argued on this thread is that I'm not really seeing any hard evidence that the griefing is suddenly out of control.

Moopf - you make some really good points. One I'd like to zero in on, however - is the question of whether griefing is suddenly out of control.

I suppose the answer to that question depends completely on your vantage point. As several folks have said, grief is not something that's evenly distributed - and tends to focus itself on certain areas.

Is griefing suddenly out of control? I think in most places on the grid, that answer is no. A 100% increase on Zero is still Zero. However in certain targeted 'hotspots', griefing has indeed suddenly gotten out of control.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have data that shows that we've seen a significant increase at my location. Since August 2004 up until two weeks ago, the Shelter had 18 avatars on our permanant ban list. In the last 2 weeks, that list has grown to 43 (Its actually 35 now, if you exclude avatars that have been permanantly banned from SL). To me, that's a pretty big jump in a short (2-week) amount of time.

In response, I've had to do a couple things: For starters, I've tripled the number of volunteers that are now empowered to eject griefers. I'm hoping that more coverage will help. However, the last thing I want for us is to spend more time playing Policeman, and less time playing Mentor.

Secondly, I've made our security sensors more agressive, to reduce the amount of time it takes to eject a troublemaker. Previously, it could take up to a full minute before someone could be removed. The catch-22 this puts us in, is the sim resources a more agressive sensor scan takes. We just dont have the luxury of only doing 60-second scans anymore, unless alternative tools are provided.

So again, has griefing increased? I think it depends on where you spend your time - just as it always has with experiencing grief in general.

Crucial, I know you mean well, but wouldn't a single thread be better than spamming every other thread in the forum with this?

first i am only posting in threads that pertain to the new registration and the influx of greafers scamers and the like

and i would be happy to take any punishment that may come my way for my actions here
as i sincerely believe that this issue is worth any punishment i can be given.

sincerely
crucial

Travis, I don't disagree that there are trouble-spots, so to speak, where griefers will tend to congregate. I think as I've already said on a post on one of the threads, the furries seem to attract more than their fair share, for example.

Your example is a big jump, absolutely, but is this indicative of the way it's going to continue or is it the short, sharp jolt whilst the interested jerks get it out of their system pretty much en-mass? Daniel Linden said there had been a noteable increase, but that it's settling down again to more normal levels. That's why I think that 2 weeks isn't enough time to say whether it's out of control or not.

Let's not forget that we've always had spates of increased, concerted griefing. When the like of Something Awful came in in a big wave, things got nasty. But the waves tend to calm down again and I don't believe we've had enough time pass in order to say whether or not that's the way it's going to be this time.

I know, as well as the Lindens know at a guess, that more tools are needed to get around these problems. The Lindens are very good at fighting fire, and if they're seeing the problems increase, or even the perception that problems have gotten worse increases, I'm sure we'll see the new tools sooner than they would have originally.

So maybe, looking back in a couple of months time, you'll be saying that a few weeks of nightmare was worthwhile because we've now got much better tools to deal with the problems. Possibly

I say possibly because it's what I'd be busy doing if I ran Linden Labs but, obviously, I'm not Linden Labs

I'm wondering if this isn't because of new registration but because you're a new convenient target. Luskwood is an old target why do newbies hate furries? They probably don't but the furries just happen to be big and popular right next to the WA. Now Isabel is one of the places swarms of newbies are being dumped and guess who the big nearby blob of avatars is? The reports are indicating a big spike in gun crimes. No griefing intended how many newbies get their new "big gun" and want to try it out? And who's the nearest target? WA - Furries at Lusk Isabel - Newbies at the Shelter. Shooting up a sim strikes me a weak way to take advantage of no verification and a very newbie act. Has it increased? Yes, newbies have increased. Is everyone saying keep new people out? What alot of this sounds like is "We have a flood of new people who didn't read the TOS on the way in, LL keep them out!!!"

On the other hand, maybe people who post lost of complaints about griefers attract greifers. Just sayin.

On the other hand, maybe people who post lots of complaints about griefers attract greifers. Just sayin.