Virtual Worlds where Matter Matters?
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-07-2006 11:46
From: Rickard Roentgen This model has been tried before, but has never taken off. Gathering resources in order to build things is borring. Growing a garden might be fun, chopping wood is not, Digging up ore is not. I think all of it would be more interesting that sitting in a money chair. Hunting could probably also be quite fun. I know there are hunting simulators for example. In any case, the important thing is not what examples I use, but the underlying way the world would work. Instead of mainly a place for exercises in creativity unconnected to the rest, it would be a simulation of a living place with its own dynamics. Besides, can you cite me any examples where this model has been used?
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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AJ DaSilva
woz ere
Join date: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,993
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04-07-2006 11:47
Sorry, perhaps context wasn't the best word to use. Perhaps theme would be a better one? I mean, my original idea was based around things that could be done in the home since I wouldn't be willing to rent a sim for it and a lot of people have very "real world" type houses. While it isn't necessary (the mechanics could be used to produce goods totally unrelated to each other) I've always imagined people like some kind of coherance to things. And Rickard, I'm of the belief that any task can be made fun in a game - it just depends on how you go about implimenting it. I reckon I could even make crapping fun to do.  |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-07-2006 11:53
From: Monique Mistral I'm mainly preoccupied with the concept of physical economy right now, and I would like a game that grew around that in an organic way. You could implement this in SL using something like Ordinal Malaprop's 'batteries'. But you wouldn't be forced to. But allowing scripting would make it quickly mutate into something entirely unexpected... For example, let's say that you needed to generate "energy" to move things, and you needed a certain amount of iron and steel to make an "engine" that can burn a certain amount of coal per hour, and generate a certain amount of "energy" which can then be fed to a "wheel" or a "propellor" or whatever that turns that energy into motion. So, if I wanted to get from Pangaea City to Gondwanatown, I'd make a hoverbike that would be the smallest amount of resource prims I could get away with, thrown together anyway I wanted, and script it to use ground-push or jet-push or whatever is most efficient at the time. I wouldn't build a railroad, or a train, because those things don't make sense when you have control system technology and you're not simulating physics inside the engine, but are just building stuff using some kind of resource limits. Similarly, I'd make a tiny little "steam powered" scanner robot to hunt the mountain goats for me, with a railgun to shoot them and alert me to zip over in my hoverbike. I think it'd be a blast to play in that, and I'd probably spend a whole lot of time early on coming up with the control systems to push the technology to the limits of the zone, but is that the kind of world you're envisioning? |
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Sidra Stern
Second Life Resident
Join date: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 73
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04-07-2006 11:58
THere is a game out there like what you are talking about. Its called Sociolotron. The graphics are in no way as good as Second Life, but if you do not eat, you die... if you do not work and sell and trade your wares, you dont have money to eat. You also age, so you must procreate.. and you can also die from disease if you arent careful...
It is a very dark game, and only for adults. But you may like it as a change of pace.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-07-2006 11:58
From: Monique Mistral I think all of it would be more interesting that sitting in a money chair. People don't spend real live user time sitting in a money chair. They run a mouse click generator and leave their avatar logged on while they do something else. In Everquest, people run scripts outside the game to bypass the tedious work. If scripting is possible in-world, you don't even have to do that. If scripting isn't possible, then you've got Everquest. |
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
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04-07-2006 20:47
From: Argent Stonecutter They run a mouse click generator and leave their avatar logged on while they do something else. Heres a tip for camp chair zombies. You don't need a mouse click generator. Just select and edit a prim and leave it. As I remember, the client will think that you're busy doing something and won't boot you off. |
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-07-2006 22:52
From: Cottonteil Muromachi Heres a tip for camp chair zombies. You don't need a mouse click generator. Just select and edit a prim and leave it. As I remember, the client will think that you're busy doing something and won't boot you off. Doesn't work. |
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
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04-10-2006 04:51
Sorry, I forgot to say. It doesn't work for grumpy people.
I've been using it for donkeys months now.
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-10-2006 05:05
From: Cottonteil Muromachi Sorry, I forgot to say. It doesn't work for grumpy people.
I've been using it for donkeys months now. Uh huh, sure you have, Cot. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-10-2006 06:16
From: Cottonteil Muromachi Beyond the usual talk about scripting, building and events within SL, the social part of it always ends up talking about things in reality, and whatever immersion in a virtual world goes away, and everything becomes just a background prop. And its back to being a glorified chat room. I rarely talk about RL in-game, except with people I know really well, or in a general "news of the world" sense. "My player gets nervous when I start trying to guess what it's up to." or "My player's a rat, no, really, it is!" and that's even the truth... according to the Chinese Zodiac... |
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-10-2006 11:10
From: Lordfly Digeridoo You might be interested in A Tale In THe Desert, a sort of virtual society simulation of ancient egypt. It's extremely fascinating, although the burnout rate is very high (people get addicted to the crafting element extremely easily). Thanks, I'll check it out, even though the setting appears kind of exotic. How much a slash and level game would you say this is?
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-10-2006 11:13
From: Sidra Stern THere is a game out there like what you are talking about. Its called Sociolotron. The graphics are in no way as good as Second Life, but if you do not eat, you die... if you do not work and sell and trade your wares, you dont have money to eat. You also age, so you must procreate.. and you can also die from disease if you arent careful...
It is a very dark game, and only for adults. But you may like it as a change of pace. Went and had a peek on this. Yes, it certainly appears to be very "Mature" by definition. Not very good looking, but I generally think content is more important than eye candy. I'll try it out just to see what kind of ideas they have implemented. Thanks!
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
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04-10-2006 11:53
From: Monique Mistral Thanks, I'll check it out, even though the setting appears kind of exotic. How much a slash and level game would you say this is? Absolutely zero. The game relies on zero combat (yes, none.) There's a ceremonial combat ritual thing, but that's optional, and most fokls don't use it. The basic premise is: the game starts a "telling" by dumping players along various spots on the Nile river (I think the game is like a 1/512th scale of Egypt, still huge), with nothing. From there you have to start the basics of civilization; picking up grass, drying it to make straw. Then picking up wood, clay, sand, and everything else, eventually making building materials. From there the essential pieces of an urban area are in place; houses, markets, and the like start popping up. The entire "point" of the game is for the players to collectively construct a Utopian Egypt. The first "telling" took about a year; the second one is still going after almost 2 years, way longer than what the game designers intended. It's a fascinating game to watch. Burnout's high, though, because you get completely into it for a long time, then just... drop out.
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-10-2006 12:17
From: AJ DaSilva Sorry, perhaps context wasn't the best word to use. Perhaps theme would be a better one? I mean, my original idea was based around things that could be done in the home since I wouldn't be willing to rent a sim for it and a lot of people have very "real world" type houses.
While it isn't necessary (the mechanics could be used to produce goods totally unrelated to each other) I've always imagined people like some kind of coherance to things. Sorry, guess I was absorbed by certain set of features when I wrote the last reply. I'll give it another try. Well, I sure like "coherence to things" and the initial discussion was indeed about the lack of integration of your avatar into the virtual world. First off, I was never really talking about SL of course, so the features I'll storm below won't have any direct relation to it. Nevertheless, SL will serve as the 'backdrop' to illustrate the sort of world I'll imagine in my head. As for the home, I would have liked to have uses for kitchen furniture and stove to cook and make meals, for example. That means the avatars need to get hungry of course, but if so that should be implemented in a player-friendly way. For instance, I could imagine a system where avatars grew hungry after a certain number of played hours, say 12, and another 12 hours before effects would begin to appear because you hadn't been feeding. Consequences should be mild and without permanent effects, perhaps slowing the avatar down or something, I don't know (maybe a silly suggestion, I'm sure there are better ones). Every time you eat, you'd reset the feeding cycle, and you shouldn't grow fat just because you're a gormand rather than a gourmet... You should likely get other effects from satisfying such a basic urge as well, perhaps increasing a comfort level, or something (yes, I'm going very Sims here). Apart from Comfort, there could be Pleasure, Fun, Energy all of those things, what's important is the implementation. The player should not feel like he's doing nothing but chasing his tamagouchi, I'm in total agreement with that. For instance Pleasure could be a mood or sensation that will occur given the proper stimulation or something, yet not exist as a necessary "need" to fulfill. More house: We talked about growing fruit in your garden. What about keeping chickens, a cow, a pigpen or a goat, all of which could have similar applications as a few appletrees (or give various entries into a recipée, like if you 'harvest' a pig, you'd get pork). You wouldn't have to own a whole sim for keeping that level of agriculture. Keeping and even breeding horses of course. A horse can be used for transportation, or (if you own entire fields) be put in front of a plough on a grain field. Grain is then grinded into flour in a mill. You could even use a handmill for that, the result would be the staple ingredient for baking bread... ...which you also could do yourself at home given an oven. Furniture... Energy and Comfort would increse as you sit chatting, even more so in a bed of course. Quality/material type could result in varying 'efficiencies'. Fireplaces when lit could also radiate beneficial 'moods'. I think lounging around on a bathing madrass in the pool should have relaxing effects, as well as playing in a pool should be Fun. Weaving, knitting, spinning... there are several types of pastimes like this which at the same time are actually productive occupations (i.e results in material processing). Then, if we allow it, there'd be plates to clean and littering to take care of, making useful the profession of maid and other various domestic servants. You'd get a Fun and perhaps a drunk factor from drinking alcohol. That's all I could think of for now. Was this more the reply you wanted, AJ? As for determining the actual pattern of mechanics that be used and which concepts that ought to be scrapped/simplified, I feel it's to early in the discussion to dwell into that. Although, it would be fun if you cared to share some of your thoughts on the subject.
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-10-2006 12:37
From: Lordfly Digeridoo Absolutely zero. The game relies on zero combat (yes, none.) There's a ceremonial combat ritual thing, but that's optional, and most fokls don't use it. The basic premise is: the game starts a "telling" by dumping players along various spots on the Nile river (I think the game is like a 1/512th scale of Egypt, still huge), with nothing. From there you have to start the basics of civilization; picking up grass, drying it to make straw. Then picking up wood, clay, sand, and everything else, eventually making building materials. From there the essential pieces of an urban area are in place; houses, markets, and the like start popping up. The entire "point" of the game is for the players to collectively construct a Utopian Egypt. The first "telling" took about a year; the second one is still going after almost 2 years, way longer than what the game designers intended. It's a fascinating game to watch. Burnout's high, though, because you get completely into it for a long time, then just... drop out. Wow! As a main skeleton concept, that sounds exactly like what I was looking for! Especially the 'you're thrown out into the world to begin with the grass and sticks' stuff. Amazing. 
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-10-2006 12:45
From: Argent Stonecutter For example, let's say that you needed to generate "energy" to move things, and you needed a certain amount of iron and steel to make an "engine" that can burn a certain amount of coal per hour, and generate a certain amount of "energy" which can then be fed to a "wheel" or a "propellor" or whatever that turns that energy into motion.
So, if I wanted to get from Pangaea City to Gondwanatown, I'd make a hoverbike that would be the smallest amount of resource prims I could get away with, thrown together anyway I wanted, and script it to use ground-push or jet-push or whatever is most efficient at the time. This sounds interesting and very compelling. From: someone I wouldn't build a railroad, or a train, because those things don't make sense when you have control system technology and you're not simulating physics inside the engine, but are just building stuff using some kind of resource limits.
Similarly, I'd make a tiny little "steam powered" scanner robot to hunt the mountain goats for me, with a railgun to shoot them and alert me to zip over in my hoverbike.
I think it'd be a blast to play in that, and I'd probably spend a whole lot of time early on coming up with the control systems to push the technology to the limits of the zone, but is that the kind of world you're envisioning? Sure! I don't exactly care if you'd use a bolt-action rifle or a robot with a raygun (I might still build a railroad though, because I love steam trains! ). It's the internal dynamics of a game that makes up its physical economy, and that's what I'm in for!
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-10-2006 12:46
From: Monique Mistral Keeping and even breeding horses of course. A horse can be used for transportation, or (if you own entire fields) be put in front of a plough on a grain field. Grain is then grinded into flour in a mill. You could even use a handmill for that, the result would be the staple ingredient for baking bread... I'd like a building system that's good enough to make horses that are more than garden sculpture before I'd start worrying about scripting them to do things like pulling a plough. From: someone You'd get a Fun and perhaps a drunk factor from drinking alcohol. We already have THIS bit... |
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Monique Mistral
Pink Plastic Flamingo
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 167
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04-10-2006 12:54
From: Argent Stonecutter I'd like a building system that's good enough to make horses that are more than garden sculpture before I'd start worrying about scripting them to do things like pulling a plough. Okay, fair enough. I often go out on a tangent and complicate things, I'm aware of that weakness. You should still be able to use a horses for travel in my opinion. By the way, you think it would be overly difficult to put horses in front of a stage-coach too? Well, we sort of have a fun & drunk factor, but I was thinking fun as a glowing green column of light on your screen, resulting in various animations and audio too, for instance.
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The idiots are definitely on the grass.
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
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04-10-2006 17:37
From: Monique Mistral Wow! As a main skeleton concept, that sounds exactly like what I was looking for! Especially the 'you're thrown out into the world to begin with the grass and sticks' stuff. Amazing. It's really an interesting dynamic. There's been a few social uprisings, a few protests; one of the goals is to get a Pharoah elected, which has the power to ban anyone/everyone at will. It's been used once, I think. Fascinating. It's a shame the game is so small; I think only like 2000 people play it.
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
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04-11-2006 05:02
From: Eep Quirk Uh huh, sure you have, Cot. LOL, I just tried it for an hour or so. Went away for dinner. It still works. But of course you won't believe me. You just like to grumble about things that don't work and comparing it to activeworlds or something. |
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-11-2006 05:31
From: Cottonteil Muromachi LOL, I just tried it for an hour or so. Went away for dinner. It still works. But of course you won't believe me. You just like to grumble about things that don't work and comparing it to activeworlds or something. Um, it didn't work for me, Cot. I tried it RIGHT after you claimed it worked. I put SL in the background (alt-tabbed, didn't minimize it) and did other things for a half-hour, where, immediately, I was logged off SL. Did you keep SL in the foreground? What OS are you using? Maybe you have something running in the background that is moving your mouse slightly or something. Maybe something else is sending something to the SL window to keep your av logged in. I grumble when I have a problem with something someone says, Cot. Duh. Stop being an idiot and think you know me becuase you DON'T. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-11-2006 10:52
From: Monique Mistral Well, we sort of have a fun & drunk factor, but I was thinking fun as a glowing green column of light on your screen, resulting in various animations and audio too, for instance.
integer fun_level = 0;
integer fun_words = ["party","fun","monique mistral"];
integer bad_words = ["lag","real","linden"];
integer MAX_FUN = 8;
integer MIN_FUN = 2;
default
{
state_entry()
{
llSetAlpha(0.2,ALL_SIDES);
llSetColor(<0,1,0>,ALL_SIDES);
llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_FULLBRIGHT,ALL_SIDES,TRUE]);
llListen(0,"","","");
fun_level = MIN_FUN;
}
listen(integer chan,string name,key id,string message)
{
integer n; integer i;
message = llToLower(message);
if(fun < MAX_FUN)
{
n = llGetListlength(fun_words);
for(i = 0; i < n; i++)
{
if(llSubStringIndex(message,llList2String(fun_words,i) != -1)
fun_level++;
}
}
if(fun > MIN_FUN)
{
n = llGetListlength(bad_words);
for(i = 0; i < n; i++)
{
if(llSubStringIndex(message,llList2String(bad_words,i) != -1)
fun_level--;
}
}
llSetAlpha(0.1 * fun_level, ALL_SIDES);
}
}
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
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04-11-2006 15:51
From: Eep Quirk Um, it didn't work for me, Cot. I tried it RIGHT after you claimed it worked. I put SL in the background (alt-tabbed, didn't minimize it) and did other things for a half-hour, where, immediately, I was logged off SL. Did you keep SL in the foreground? What OS are you using? Maybe you have something running in the background that is moving your mouse slightly or something. Maybe something else is sending something to the SL window to keep your av logged in.
I grumble when I have a problem with something someone says, Cot. Duh. Stop being an idiot and think you know me becuase you DON'T. Using Windows XP Pro. I've used this both with SL in foreground and background. Nothing running in the background but the AVG antivirus. Just rightclick edit and leave the computer. Never said I knew anything about you. I judge people by what they do, not what they really are, so you just proved that again by calling me an idiot. But nevermind, really, this is really off topic. |
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Rickard Roentgen
Renaissance Punk
Join date: 4 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,869
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04-11-2006 16:35
SL occasionally doesn't log me off for being idle as well. No idea why. I've got so much crap running it could be anything. However it sometimes seems to matter if I've got the edit window open but I haven't tested much and it doesn't seem consistant.
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Hellinar Lightworker
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1
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04-12-2006 09:59
From: Monique Mistral Wow! As a main skeleton concept, that sounds exactly like what I was looking for! Especially the 'you're thrown out into the world to begin with the grass and sticks' stuff. Amazing. If you are interested in A Tale in the Desert, now would be a good time to take a look. Tale 2 is just finishing, and the beta for Tale 3 is opening soon. All the "high tech" in the world will be swept away, and its back to building with wood sticks and stone blades. I like both worlds, SL and "Egypt". Both reward creativity, but Egypt has more structure, and more resource restrictions, than SL. I'd hate to see SL introduce more artificial resource restrictions. Dealing with abundance is one of the things that makes the world of SL interesting to me. Its a real 'information economy'. |