Virtual Worlds where Matter Matters?

This is a question to you all. I wonder if there are any Virtual Worlds out there, either in existence or on the drawing boards, in which your character actually has to interact with the environment to get along and that are not merely graphical chatrooms?

Where goods are in fact provided through processes of in world material significance, where your character feels happy, stimulated or dazed without you in RL being the only one to provide the roleplay, where there is a point in enjoying applepie, and if you want to go somewhere faster you breed a horse or build a railroad (or buy a train ticket).

Yes, I'm talking about a more 'gamey' Virtual World, for you to build a life and be free to make a career in, but not a game in the sense that it has certain set goals or is restricted in theme. For instance, the players should be able to provide content, fashion and builds.

I know about TSO of course, but that is not exactly what I'm after. For instance, having to work in that game is just an excuse to earn Simoleons (if I'm right), you don't really produce anything of value or significance to the environment. Neither am I after a MMORPG which is too limited in scope in my opinion: only about grinding and leveling and usually located in some quaint fantasy setting.

If there isn't anything like this, a Virtual Sort of Simulation so to speak, I think there is a hole in the gaming market.

Third Life, anyone?

Please...

I think this is a fun concept. Part of the dreariness that breeds from SL is the inconsequential nature of things and the total lack of the 'gameyness'. Being godlike and able to rez things at no cost out of nowhere takes away part of the fun. I'd personally like to buy or scrounge for building materials, for example, or just wander around a junkyard, looking for parts.

Exactly, the dreariness... It does indeed stem from that nothing has any consequence and there is no in world functionality to anything. At last someone who understands!

Yes, I would want to actually 'live' in a Virtual World Game, not just be some immaterial ghost. That would entail a world that would be a bit more 'gamey'.

I just don't get why no developer has thought about this before...

I think many might have thought about it, but do not have the resources to do it, since there are too many simulations to run simultaneously.

For example, I find trees irritating in SL, because they do not grow, die or replicate. If you lived in a real virtual world, you should be able to plant simple seedlings that react to watering, fertilizer, etc. and grow up into food that you can sell off. It sounds boring, but those who have ever planted and watched their plants grow in RL know how satisfying it is as compared to rezzing a billion of them from their inventory. At least this would generate some semblance of an economy that doesn't rely on total number of panties sold per day.

Yes, the trees & plants point is a good one - another is weather. I would love it if SL had cloudes, storms, snow, hail, lightning, etc. that realistically interacted with objects (meaning, no rain in my house).
Imagine how cool it would be to boat through a driving storm, or see mist rising up off your property in the morning.
Still, I realize as a programmer how difficult how all that would be to work into the client, so I sympathize with them not having it. Indeed, I believe they had weather in beta to some degree, but eliminated it because they couldn't nail down the realistic interaction with objects.

This and other physics/mechanics type issues are extremely difficult to program, more so than many probably realize. I'm sure SL is working to incorporate them in-game, but it will be a long time before this sort of thing is implemented on a widespread basis within the client.

I've thought of it before. A system like that is on my big list o' things to make in SL. It's quite a way down the list though, since it's a huge project (although it could be broken down into smaller interlinking ones I guess) and I don't see a huge market for it. Of course, the more interest I see in it the higher it'll go.

So, purely out of curiosity for now, what kind of context(s) would you be interested in?

I could really, really live without my avatar needing to take a crap or pay to get his hair cut and other stuff like that. It's a wildly tedious concept for me and I'm glad to be free of it here.

I dunno, I have enough biological misery in my life without having to have those processes simulated electronically.

Don't you want Tamaguchi Enabran wailing at you for food and entertainment every so often?

Go play a standard MMORPG if you want to do all that kind of stuff.

You can do those things in SL. It's called roleplay. If you HAVE to do that kind of stuff, it becomes work.

Musuko.

Work can be fun, however. I like how, in the Gothic series and Arx Fatalis, one can cook food and make weapons and other things (combining objects), mine for gold and other precious stones, etc. This environmental interaction adds to the immersion ( more environment interaction for Gothic, Arx Fatalis, and other games).

SL doesn't really have any gaming sims that can do these things. Dark Life is still pretty basic (and small). SL doesn't really have a "killer app" for it, which makes it still seem vague and confusing to new users ("what's the point of this game??". While I like its open-endedness and scriptability, it's a bit TOO open-ended (like how nothing happens when an avatar enters the terrain water).

I think, more than anything, SL's lack of definition kills its potential. I'm all for not wanting to be defined but, if the need arises, I CAN define myself quite specifically. I don't think SL can do this. It's just there...without purpose.

I saw the DEMO presentation slides yesterday for the first time and wasn't impressed. Not only are most, if not all, of the predictions way off and incorrect, it just doesn't have any defined purpose or goal. It gives "customer segments" of "PC gamers", "digital artists, technosavvy creatives" (no, really, it does--it's that silly), and "virtual self-expressionists" (showing an Active Worlds--AW--screenshot, interestingly) yet I can only see SL has reaching the last 2 segments--barely.

Aside from an ego-boosting toy, I don't really know what else SL is. It sucks as a gaming platform (just look at vehicles, weapons, and even avatar jumping) and the outrageous cost of land makes it impractical for most people to even WANT to try and develop anything large-scale (i.e. a game "world" in SL.

OK, now I'm going to go off on a little rant I have about the game industry in general. So many different 3D engines exist that basically do the same thing. There are some major contenders like Quake, Unreal, LithTech/Jupiter (whatever), NetImmerse (renamed), and so many propietary engines it's just pathetic. There just needs to be ONE open-source 3D engine used by ALL 3D games (scalable, feature-rich, fast, etc etc, blah blah blah) that can ALL be linked together kinda like The Croquet Project where you can enter portals to various games--all within the same 3D engine. The Open Source Metaverse Project is another example (unfortuately, both of these have a LONG way to go, but it's a start). Ideally, it would be cool if the various game worlds could be seamlessly linked, but that might just be too difficult (unless you set them all in the same galaxy/universe/omniverse). But that isn't really important initially.

Coming back to SL, it's less of an environment editor (compared to AW) since it really only allows terrain editing and setting the sun position. SL is more of a modeller or script editor than anything. It's a novelty app that doesn't really lend itself to full-scale game creation. AW is MUCH more customizable and closer to the Star Trek: TNG+ holodeck than SL is. Unfortunately, AW doesn't have as much environment interaction capabilities (i.e. scripting) and physics that SL has.

I've been in Active Worlds since summer 1997--almost 9 years now--and watched it improve (though it STILL needs a LOT of [urlhttp://tnlc.com/eep/aw/improve.html]improvement[/url]--interestingly, which SL has a lot of) but it basically floundered and didn't go anywhere. I don't want to see SL follow AW's path. SL NEEDS to be defined. I feel that definition is best served in gaming (and I don't understand the push AWAY from gaming I've heard Philip, or some Linden anyway, mention how MMORPGs are doing, or whatever). The problem is, none of the MMORPGs have done a multi-level environment editor "game" (holodeck).

This is why I would like to see AW and SL merge, giving us the benefits of BOTH apps and getting the multi-user environment editor that much closer to a reality. However, it will more likely be a game company that does this. I just can't believe it hasn't been done yet, but it's getting there.

The latest Unreal engine offers more real-time rendering capabilities, for example. All it has to do is add multi-player level editing and make it seamlessly part of the game itself (toggle in/out of edit mode like AW/SL does), complete with existing game mechanics (inventory, av customization, etc), and there you have it--at least on its own propietary platform anyway. The game industry still needs to come together and use/develop a single open-source 3D engine.

Just look at Firefox's plugins and how it truly is the best web browser out there. I really don't see how Internet Explorer can compete anymore. If something similar happened with a 3D engine, that would be the end of it--no more COMPETING; instead, COLLABORATING.

The multiverse won't happen through competition. but through everyone working TOGETHER (not separately in their own universes) in creating it; it's called a MULTI-verse for a reason...

I don't know about having to do these things, but it must be said that if you're in SL at an inconvenient time, there isn't a lot to do if you're not feeling creative.

Sure, quite a lot of the time I'll pull out a gadget I've been working on and tinker with that for a bit, or rez a few prims at random, see what they remind me of and build from there. But one doesn't always feel like building or scripting.

There's exploring, but that's a bit passive for me sometimes, particularly as in many places there's not a lot you can do once you've looked around and thought "hmm, very pretty". It would be nice to always have something around that you could engage with without having to think too hard.

I just totally agree with this. Planting a garden, feeling the pride in one's work and watching it grow is definitely a major source fun and purpose for me in computer games, especially when I know I can harvest the oranges from my orchard, bring it to market and perhaps buy a duchesse chaise lounge for the remaining profits.

The basic premise is applicable to almost any commerce, endeavour or industry. It is the sort of joy that runs resource games in general, like Transport Tycoon or Civilization. The sense it's your own thrift, love and toil that brings food on the table, earns wages for your employées and enables you to expand and diversify, and create something of beauty in the world.

I'll get back to the other replies when I get some free time tonight (so many interesting comments in this thread already).

Second Life is the closest thing I know of to this.

Closer than the games like the Sims where the character is a kind of Tamagotchi.

Offline, things like Animal Crossing do this well.

The thing is, once you start interacting with other humans, you have to deal with the social aspects of things. How does an agent know whether the interaction with another character made it happier or sadder, if it's not smart enough to distinguish between "I wish you a wonderful love affair" and "get ----ed"?

Come on by and I'll blast you a few times until you get that creative spirit back

"but it must be said that if you're in SL at an inconvenient time, there isn't a lot to do if you're not feeling creative."

Lindenlabs create a world. It's up to you to entertain yourself within it. If you are bored, you can no more blame Second Life for your failure to find something entertaining to do than you can blame books for your inability to read.

There are plenty of interesting things in Second Life. Go and find them.

Or, if you can't find anything interesting to do at a certain time, log off and go play in the sun! There are other things in life you know. Second Life doesn't have to be your only source of entertainment.

Musuko.

In a sense, you can already do this. Look at the various food objects that give pieces/slices/glasses/etc of the object. There's no reason this couldn't apply to fruit/vegetable plants/trees as well. There are tree growing scripts that could have its fruit detachable and givable.

I want to do this with a smurfberry bush but haven't gotten it quite figured out yet. Basically, I want to have the bush regrow the smurfberry over a period of time (days/weeks, ideally), making it go from small to big, green (unripe) to red (ripe). It's entirely possible. Then the smurfberries will grow back in the same or a random place on the bush surface. When touched, the berry will disappear and the standard llGiveInventory dialog box will appear. Someone's probably already done it for something else...

Of course, it would be better if out avatars HAD to eat so farming COULD be a worthwhile SL job (more gamelike). Just how much of a life is Second Life trying to emulate? Currently, not much since it doesn't place many real-life limits (not that I'm complaining but it would be nice to have the option of going into "RL-SL av mode" or something).

If I don't feel like being in SL... I sign out.

One part of me tells me its a bore to constantly have to worry about being a tamagotchi. But then when I think when people keep saying that this is supposedly a social game/platform, there is a constant problem of all of us having godly powers and suffer no starvation or physical harm.

Beyond the usual talk about scripting, building and events within SL, the social part of it always ends up talking about things in reality, and whatever immersion in a virtual world goes away, and everything becomes just a background prop. And its back to being a glorified chat room.

No matter how banal people think the regular MMORPGs are, banding and fighting together and fending off dangers actually bring people closer. What we have here in SL is the flexibility to set the setting for these things to occur, and it helps the roleplay to a certain extent. You can for example have sims themed on an urban context while another is a medieval one. Both are still bound by the laws of physics, and the corporeal nature of our avatars, so the same simulation engine can be applied to any theme.

"there is a constant problem of all of us having godly powers and suffer no starvation or physical harm."

You know, if I could have that in real life, I wouldn't consider it a problem.

Stop complaining. Buy some land. Set it damage-ok. Make an attachment that causes gradual damage all the time. Wear it. Make a chair in front of a table of food that restores your health when you sit at it. Problem solved.

And if you REALLY want this experience, go play the sims online.

Musuko.

You might be interested in A Tale In THe Desert, a sort of virtual society simulation of ancient egypt. It's extremely fascinating, although the burnout rate is very high (people get addicted to the crafting element extremely easily).

Interesting... If the elements, weather and climate, also had a physical effect on materials and your avatar (like, snow storms are bad for you if don't own a fur coat, and leaving a grand piano or your bed outside in a hailstorm might not be a good idea) there could even be a point in getting into your house when the rain starts pouring. In fact, weather - the balance of rain and sunshine - could even be made to affect crops etc.



That would be way cool! Will the old hulk hold, will you lose your way at sea? What about the passengers and the cargo?



I can imagine it could be difficult! On the other hand, I guess it's partly a question of how 'organic' you wish to make a weather system, and how many parameters you want to include. Computing the flow of water at a certain volume over a given area of terrain might be nice, but perhaps not be entirely necessary.
Don't know if that's a good example, but I'll let it stand all the same.

What about a seasonal cycle, that you could turn off if you wished on certain sims?

Oh GAWD no! Someone hand me an icepick and a hammer!

Whoa, now we're talking! I certainly see a market for it since it would be the only game of its kind. How many thought that The Sims would have become a success in a world where there were only shooters and flight simulators? "What, a game about living in a suburb without no goal and no violence and no rayguns?!!"
It's obviously the same with Virtual Worlds. They all seem to be mainly glorified chat rooms right now, so who needs another.



I'm mainly preoccupied with the concept of physical economy right now, and I would like a game that grew around that in an organic way. I'll explain.

If we take the train I mentioned initially, the engine would be made out of iron or steel, right? So somewhere the materials for building it would have to be extracted and possibly refined. It burns coal for fuel, which would need to be mined somewhere and then bought by the railroad Company. Coal can naturally be burnt for electric energy too at power stations or be refined into making fuel for autocars (which might also run on gasolin from oil) or parrafin. Which the lonely gold-digger uses to fuel the lamp at his camp. The same lamp is used by the hunter, who, with his rifle that is manufactured somewhere, brings down chamois goats up in the Alps, which then are used to make the finest and most refined leathers around.

I could go on, but that's what I mean by a physical economy. Note: it must not be as elaborate (actually the trick is to simplify it into game terms). It's about industries that are all interlinked in complex relations of exchanging goods and capital and where money is just another form of capital. Materials would probably need to come in equivalent units, much like prims in a way.

As far as I've thought about this, most things would need to have a materials part (which is built by players) and a functional part (which probably must be provided fixed and ready by the game). How else would a car know that it's supposed to run or a flour mill supposed to make flour out of grain? That's one thing.

The other thing I've thought about is that materials in themselves could have various attributes, like weight, heat resistance, softness, whatever, even quality... in that it would be impossible to build a train engine out of stone (since it would break down and wouldn't move an inch) or for people to wear wooden clothes or conversively build columns out of wool.

Well, there is no reason a game must feature uncomfortable or tedious matters like taking a crap every now and then. It's just a game, it works on its own terms, it's not supposed to be an exact replica of reality.

That said, we are talking about "Third Life" here, so you'll always have Second Life to play with if you want to. No one is forcing you to play anything.

This model has been tried before, but has never taken off. Gathering resources in order to build things is borring. Growing a garden might be fun, chopping wood is not, Digging up ore is not.