Progress? What Progress?

Ok, so the Lindens can expect you to from now on regularily visit the preview grids? come on ppl, visiting the previews once in a while is the best and most direct way to help with testing stuff. Stop complaining. start testing.

Oh, you are only here to complain? sorry, didn't know that ...

bye, Barney

(and yes, some stuff will only show in the "real" grid - massive parallel systems are that way, it's what all programmers of such stuff sooner or later learn the hard way)

What gets me is WHY do they have a preview grid? Supposedly for testing, the Lindens say...but WHY do they never find these showstopping bugs that require the grid to go down or break a half-dozen pre-existing features? What earthly use is the preview grid other than ego-stroking by the programmers (look what wonderful widgets we are working on).

I personally have to agree with the OP, I would like to see a code freeze until the LL programmers come up with a comprehensive TESTING program. This is nothing more than a flat-out lack of QA testing that let this get off preview and onto the full grid. That and there should be a permanent end to 'fluff' additions like today's camera mods UNTIL they fix performance issues, crash issues, land controls for the mainland, better antigriefing tools, and a stream of other bugs they keep introducing with each patch.

If that's true Taco, then both groups are clearly wasting their time, aren't they?
If the 'complainers' have been complaining about LL's curious development strategy since day one, it has achieved very little.
If the 'pro-LL' group have been savagely attacking the 'complainers' since day one, what has THAT achieved?

However I doubt you are right. I have definitely noticed an increase in the level of hostility to 'complainers' in the forum in the time I've been here.

My hat's off to you! You are the ultimate consumer! Pliant, ultra-forgiving, willing to just take what the corps dish out and even defend them agains those with higher standards and expectations. Amazing how over the last decade poor service is not only tolerated but defended.

Well, there are some things you have yet to learn.

NOT only are there two camps as you mentioned, there are two OTHER camps as well.

On ONE hand you have the people who feel this is nothing but a "game" and on the other those who rabidly protest anyone calling Second Life anything that can be mistaken as a "game"

Those who think Second Life is NOT a game stopped reading your post once they reached that sentence and put a contract out on you. Expect to be dead in Second Life sometime in the next 24 hours.

Those who think Second Life IS a game continued to read with renewed enthusiasm and will be there to take the bullet of the assassin sent to kill you by the Non-game crowd.

*giggles*
Sav

I'll not get into the game/more than a game debate so my comment is simply that I don't care if something is just a game or just a pair of shoes or just a car...if I'm paying for it, I expect quality. Sure, nothing's perfect, but when I see something that's flawed because of negligence, poor craftmanship, and so on--preventable things--I don't like it.

I love new features but what really needs to be fixed first is the core flawed programming that sl is composed of. Perhaps a better use of the cache system? (slower rez times) and other things like that. Instead of adding new stuff all the time they need to focus on the main stuff and fix what needs to be fixed, then they can go back to adding all the new stuff.

Well I suppose that puts you and I also on different sides then - I thought the forurms existed to serve a useful purpose

Instead of weekly. Thank you very much.

You seem to be under the impression that we're either "hate this; it's awful!" people or "I will defend LL to the death!" people. I think that's oversimplifying it a bit.

I react the way I do for two reasons: one, for all that it does have its buggy moments, I find SL to be quite stable most of the time, as much as I've seen with most any other MMO and considerably more than some. Two, I enjoy SL. That's why I play. I can't imagine why you'd hate it and stay anyway. What's the point?

I think my problem is that, especially as a longtime MMO player, I just don't expect perfection. I understand that there will always be a certain measure of bugginess and a certain amount of downtime, and I don't find what I'm seeing excessive. Also, as a longtime MMO player, I find that there will always be whiners -- and yes, they are just flat-out whiners, some of them. SL could not possibly be good enough to suit some of these people; trust me. I've worked with the public, as I mentioned before, long enough to know that some people will piss and moan and whine and carry on and basically act like big, petulant children no matter what you do.

After a while, seeing it gets a little old.

<smiles> I'm not quite that ignorant, honest.

While I agree that SL has a great deal more sophistication than any other game I have encountered, and Philip Rosedale is convinced it's a 'platform', which is self deluding snobbery in my opinion, it has all the attributes of a complex, multifaceted and very sophisticated online computer game.

However, the phrase 'it's only a game' was just a 'bring things down to earth' tactic.

I shall await the onslaught of the massed hit squads of the platform/alternative lifestyle/embryo metaverse/Philip's dream brigade with keen interest!

For someone who was ~trying~ to bring things "down to earth" with that statement, you sure got all Mr. Sophisticated at my lighthearted attempt at humor.

Guess you are taking things too serious.
Lighten up for heaven's sake mr. preacher man.

*shrugs*
Sav

You must be new to forums in general.
I have always felt this best sums up almost any online community.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Oh I agree, but the evidence suggests that complaining produces no useful result. At which point there is a simple decision to be made. Put up with the imperfections - just like RL - or leave. Games, cars, shoes, well, you can always take your money elsewhere in search of a better product. At this point in time there is no realistic alternative to SL. So, everyone has to make their own decision, compromise or leave.
I have to say, once you decide that, yes, SL is horribly flawed, but it is usable and unique, it's a great relief. Eventually some competitor may well appear and then things may change. Until then I fear this is the best you'll find.

No, I have a long history dating back to the early days of Usenet. And to some extent your url is fairly accurate. Often it seems to describe the majority rather well. However, that's not to say that there are not people who can behave in a civilised and reasonable fashion in a forum type environment. Indeed there are quite a few here who haven't yet been driven off by some of the less engaging members of SL. The trick is not to allow oneself to be reduced to their level - I always found ignoring them was highly effective.

But that's simply not true. Each new release, I note that many of the features in it are the result of previous complaints I've seen from the users. I remember the discussion about security scripts and the complaint that they were only necessary because LL didn't have decent parcel restrictions and the ban lines didn't go up far enough. Next thing you know, ban lines get raised to a useful height, and additional options get added to the restrictions, including a response to people complaining that they don't want to run the risk of selling to people without verified CC info (since they believe that counts as age verification), so now they can prevent them from entering their store. If you think LL doesn't listen to complaints, you're not paying attention.

Of course, for each feature, people are going to complain the other way. People are banned for no reason, ban lines go too high, etc. Since there's always going to be at least two sides to every issue, at least half of the complaints made will not be addressed (or indeed may be made worse). It's flat out impossible to satisfy all complaints, since they conflict. But it's quite clear, complaining quite often produces results.

<Inigo produces a short length of rubber hose>

I was <wap!> kidding Savonah!

Lighten up <wap!> yourself! <wap!>

Hmmm, I wonder if that counts as forum abuse? Probably not round here.

<nudges the groaning figure with a toe and wanders off shoving the rubber hose out of sight>

Hey, yeah - like some sort of a... preview grid or something! Maybe even two, with upcoming releases! Where anyone interested in being part of the solution can do so by helping out the Lindens (and in turn, themselves) instead of starting 50 threads of moaning. What do you think?

I think it depends quite a lot on how simple implementing the 'fix' is. If it's simple and easily done and enough people have complained about/requested it, then something may well be done.

The thing I've noticed though is that rather a lot of people have and continue to complain that serious and long established bugs are studiously ignored while all manner of frivolous and unrequested features are introduced.

My own observations, based on actual examples, suggest this is the case. Therefore it does seem there are two classes of SL bug/feature fix.

Easy ones that are carried out quickly.
Less easy ones that are not being carried out with any urgency, if at all.

On this basis I don't think complaining is a worthwhile thing, because big important things which are difficult to fix don't seem to be on the agenda - so complaining about them is pointless.

It's also clear that the frequent accusation that LL squanders resources on pretty pointless and unrequested cosmetic improvements is not totally without foundation - just look at the current update - and again, all the complaints about this don't seem to be producing any sign of a change of policy.

Far better to get on with SL, as and when you can and make the best of it, rather than getting worked up about things you can't do anything about.

It seems to me that an awful lot of bad feeling is being generated by the opposing camps - to very little productive end. It's unedifying and rather sad to see.

Well I dont know how she felt about it but no need to bring her religious views into it, it was a very very small part of her post and was there to make a point. While my views of religion would likely clash with yours it certainly wouldnt be my reason for opposing your thread. That would be like saying "You like red shoes there for I oppose what ever you say" one has nothing to do with the other. <incert eye rolling here>


Good gravy! Any way to keep the bitching to one thread since there are SO SO many to choose from and every damn one says the same thing? .....

I'm bored with the same ol' same ol' b*tching I will cross my fingers in hopes of finding some more creative b*tching posts lol

No. More like a seperat server with specific people handling specific areas of the program so that they can isolate any specific problems while broadening the 'possible items' covered.

A preview grid is worthless if, say, most everyone never uses one specific sort of activity or program or texture.

Playtesting is an 'in-house' thing with people who do things they are good at doing. Some are great at finding bugs in platform jumping, some are better at testing weapons. Others are great at testing level limits and still others are knowledgable enough in code to figure out why their character keeps bugging out when they pick up a certain scripted object.

Playtesting is NOT putting it ou on market and going 'hey, guys, come try this' and watching random people walk in and try things they possibly have no idea how/what they are doing. They also need to have some kind of communicative skills other than 'omg i fellz thru da flur n stuffz'.

Preview grid is a good start, but it has to be a bit more controlled and intelligent in it's use.

Except in this case we have to do both...??

The performance issues in this game are unbelievably retarded.

I'd spend way more money if these "upgrades" didn't keep killing the performance of SL on my system so I could actually... use the bloody game. Sorry, "program", not game.