Avatar Decsions/Actions Impact First Life?

Nice, that sounds a lot like thought crime. Please do a favor and forget about this nonsense.






I don't get, what about it? It's just a demon. I currently look like a blue anthropomorphic fox, which isn't any more natural. Everybody chooses whatever avatar they like best, and I really don't get why people feel the need to obsess about the choices other people make.



Unfortunately not, but I wish you were. IMO, what likes SL so great is all the people with vastly different personalities you meet. One thing I certainly don't want is people running around trying to force everybody to be "normal" and boring, thank you very much. Her well-balancedness is none of your business.



Complete nonsense that doesn't even say anything. What is good art? What does "affects" mean? As stated it's not profound, it means nothing at all.



That brings me to the theory that people who like imposing their morality on others do so partly out of their fear that they're too weak to resist the "corruption". Why would you care about somebody using a demon avatar if you didn't fear even slightly that this might affect you somehow? Might be contagious

Whatever happened to "It's just fun"?

I don't age-play in SL because I have no inclination toward it. I don't playd the bdsm, fur-pile, naughty french maid, lesbian, bi, or tri-state killing-spree scene in SL because I'm also not inclined to those.

There is nothing in SL that is going to change my inclinations or my moral standing on issues. If I found something immoral, I wouldn't be participating in it in the first place, real or virtual. If I am participating in it in SL, then chances are, I have inclinations that way to begin with.

Does this mean that SL age-players are going to go out and molest children? No. Does it mean they might be getting turned on by the slutty Catholic School Girl outfits that are so popular with strippers? Yeah, probably. That's a form of age play.

If someone is so weak willed that just being exposed to something in a virtual environment is going to completely break down their moral character, then they simply shouldn't be here.

Ok, so are you saying for some people the visual is, in a sense, a "sign" (think sandwich board for lack of a better analogy) of what they want people to percieve they represent?

While it is the temptation of many to dismiss the OP as someone attempting to impose morals on this little universe and reject that idea out of hand, I think this is a subject that deserves deep thought and discussion.

How many kinks or obsessions would you really have, if you had never experienced them in others before?

SL does have a facility for tapping into the deeper reaches of our minds and bringing things bubbling to the surface. It's a shared dream, in many ways. But what effect can it have when it is so easy to open up our own personal Pandora's Boxes and share the contents with people all around the world? I know I've run across things here that I would never have imagined people really doing before.

Sometimes I am reminded of the Dream Vortex, which came at the end of The Doll's House story in the Sandman comic. In it the character Rose Walker collapsed the barriers separating individual dreams, causing an immense maelstrom of thoughts and ideas through the minds of all the dreamers. In the story the Vortex is stopped before it can annihilate the universe, but the lives of those who shared the dream are forever altered.

I wouldn't suggest trying to stuff the genie back in her bottle as some type of moral regulation. But I think people do need to take responsibility for the effects of their creations on others. RL civilization depends on us not causing too many things others are not prepared to experience. I think as SL and other virtual worlds grow in quality and immersiveness, it will be imperative that we exercise some of the same self-control and self-respect here too.

As for human sacrifice or cannibalism, they'd be as much so in this game as any other. It's only a game. As for demon worship, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that in real life, no reason why it would be any less appropriate in a game. People can worship whatever want, as long as they don't run around killing people and eating them in the process.

However, suggesting people not be allowed to engage in whatever kind of worship they wish is a serious moral failing. Religious freedom is a very important principle, and I'm continually saddened to see how little people respect it.

I'd be more likely to trust the guy in the demon suit's judgement about good and evil than the guy who objects to it. I don't know if the demon suited guy is prone to commit evil acts or not, but I know the objector is -- he's doing so right in front of me!

Hmm... I s'pose on a base level that is true. More to the point, the visual representation is a canvas upon which a person's true nature is revealed.

-Ghoti

That's a nice way of putting that. I agree.

While we may act 'out of character' for who we think we are, we really should be asking ourselves why we would do certain things in SL that we claim to not be interested in in RL. Perhaps the interest is there, and it's only the inhibition (fear of ostracism, reputation, legal factors.. etc etc. ) that is missing.

My av is me, insofar as she dresses the way I would dress if I had that figure, the way I would wear my hair if I could change it on a daily basis, and the way I would (and do) act when I don't have my friends and family looking at me as if I've completely lost my mind. It's still me, and still has my moral codes (or lack thereof, according to some) it's just a bit freer than the real world allows or encourages us to be.

Granted, that isn't true for everyone. Some people use SL as a vehicle for roleplaying someone completely different than themselves, or someone they would be if they had as much control in real life. But if that's the case, then those people should be grounded enough to recognize the difference between fantasy and reality, as with all roleplaying games.

I've played D&D, Shadowrun, CoC, various White Wolf settings, and a plethora of other roleplaying games to come along in the last 15 years or so, and never once have I put the character sheet away and forgotten I was no longer that character. Never once have I pretended to be a vampire, or an elf, or any character class... That's fantasy. If people cannot separate the two, then they should not be roleplaying anything in the first place. And it should not be up to the rest of the world, real or virtual, to inhibit themselves so that others retain their tenuous grasp on reality.

Ok, that I can buy. Not too sure what that says about me since I change my avie pretty much daily.

I do as well. But they're all looks that appeal to me, the real person, on some level. I like to think that what it says is that we have varying tastes.

BINGO!

This is exactly where I was attempting to go; well-put and far more succinct than my wordy prose.

Of all that was said in this quote let me dwell upon two words:
"forever altered". One cannot undo what one has seen/experienced.

In deference to other folks responding let me also add. We take the responsibilty of what we might see upon ourselves in the Mature side of SL.

One last item-- as raised by a responder. I am not up for constraining religion either. I regret that my post took that direction. It was really not something I caught when I did the posting and I am glad for the person that brought up that aspect. I do apologize for that particular dimension of things as part of my initial post-- it was not my intent.

Impressive take on things!

...And yes, you are quite right, we can discuss things with resorting to "they are trying to dictate behavior" or "they are immoral beasts". I was not out to offend anyone by my initial posting and frankly, I did not entirely see where this discussion would go... but... that was kind of the idea.

May I ask where this guillotine can be found?

Here's the thing Jonquille, I see what you are saying-- but SL is NOT like a standard roleplaying game. NOT AT ALL. And, most people just getting involved in SL probably will not recognize this. SL has a unique personal freedom that goes WELL BEYOND an experience engineered by a dungeonmaster AND it has the DYNAMIC DIMENSION of living and very real individuals behind the avatars. Also, it is significant to note that a KEY distinction between avatars interacting in games like Sony's Everquest and avatars in SL is that in the former these players are not living real-world philosophies or engaging in anything that remotely parallels the 'real world'. In dramatic contrast, SL has much, much closer ties (in general) to real life lives, living, relationships and points of view.

So Jonquille, I submit that we as SL participants ARE BEING NIAVE IF WE DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THESE THREE FACTORS (and there may be others) as potential areas of concern:

1.) SL's unique capability for "idea embrace and attendant value shift"-- both good and potentially not so good. I would characterize this as an unrealized gradual shift in acceptance of new beliefs that would not gain a foothold due to the constraints of RL-- but which can FLOURISH in SL. It can happen as part of a person/avatar/avatar group's purposeful planning (some would call it 'seduction' if they don't like it) or.. it can happen naturally by someone just expounding their opinions and avatars taking these in on a regular basis.

2.) In either event, there is another factor that happens within the SL world: an ACCELERATION of 'idea embrace'. This is a facet of SL that almost calls for abuse. From within SL we, as real people are more prone (I think) to accept new ideas FASTER.
* There may well be a technology aspect to this: the same sort of thing that makes the ideas put forth on television seem to be 'more important' to some people simply because they are presented through that medium.

3.) 'MIND COAST' and attendant SUGGESTABILITY: I submit that playing SL allows for a kind of coasting of the mind (like a coaster bike)-- especially where ethical views on what we would and would not do in RL are concerned. This is because the SL world is SAFE from real world harm and so... our defenses are down-- especially the intellectual barriers we have when functioning in RL.

Taking these three issues together, I submit that harm in the SL enviornment is possible because the SL environment is POWERFUL in its own way. I suggest that the potential is at least there. We enter the SL world far more susceptable (dare I say 'vulnerable'?) to persuasion to ideas both good.. and... not so good. AND - we are kidding ourselves if we don't see in SL people so deeply rooted in personal belief systems and ideologies that they might well-recognize and act upon the three points I have outlined (so crudely) above to try to realize and gain acceptance for their own beliefs and ends. I submit that even recruiting could be possible for fringe groups-- not likely-- but possible. Meetings are meetings after all.. and just meeting potential spouses or friends is not the only meeting that can be arranged from within SL.

My sense is that there are those people that may well be surprised, IF they are reflective and willing to be honest with themselves, as to possible thoughts and other changes in their RL that may well have been as a result of the SL experience. And, it is from this perspective that via this posting I would ask the community to reflect and comment.

Let me add that the word I am trying to avoid saying but which keeps coming to mind is: 'brainwashing'. I hate to use it because it is a word loaded with cultish implications and smacks of the people that expound their paranoia of government mind-control research but... maybe the term still somehow applies? You all tell me. Are my presuppostions entirely wrong? Does anyone else sense or see this?

Let me apologize in advance to those of you who are psychologists or students of psychology out there, I am sure there are far more accurate/professional terms for what I have tried to describe in this posting. I encourage you to use the more accurate terms if you choose to respond.

Let me add that the three points I raise are linked.. and.. if anyone agrees with any or all of them enough to be able to bring a tighter focus to what I am trying to say. Please do.

Finally, IF I am even in some measure right-- does not even the 'Mature' side of SL need a kind of warning? Note: I am NOT suggesting rules, restraints or even guidelines. Some of you might see the need for such formality, and, if so.. how could it be done without destroying the spirit and likely substance of SL? Could it even be done? Should it? I would take issue.. but maybe someone can make the case?

There are suggestible people everywhere, with or without SL. It's not LL's responsibility - NOR yours - to look out for them.


It has one already. It's called "Terms of Service":

Loosely translated, that means we are ADULTS, capable of making our own moral decisions. Any concerns and vague arm-waving in the direction of holding our hands, moralizing, warning signs or prohibiting conduct that may offend certain sub-sects of the population are best kept to yourself.

Please.

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

-- Dylan Thomas


-Ghoti

I <3 Dylan.

At any given moment, (Second) life is completely senseless. But viewed over a period, it seems to reveal itself as an organism existing in time, having a purpose, trending in a certain direction. - Aldous Huxley (paraphrase)

"The Psychological Dynamics That Fuel a Control Freak
The need to control is almost always fueled by anxiety – though control freaks seldom recognize their fears. At work, they may worry about failure. In relationships, they may worry about not having their needs met. To keep this anxiety from overwhelming them, they try to control the people or things around them. They have a hard time with negotiation and compromise and they can’t stand imperfection. Needless to say, they are difficult to live with, work with and/or socialize with."

Let me ask you a question, Archayti... Do you have sex with child-avatars in SL?

If not, why not?

I feel simply by being marked "mature" there is a sufficient warning. And every place I have gone where activities are likely to be more risque or hardcore, they're either clearly marked by their advertising (at the place or in the find menu) or they let you know almost immediately after arrival. I've been very pleased with the level of courtesy being observed in SL, thus far.

What I do in SL, I probably wouldn't do in RL -- but you know, part of that goes back to the level of courtesy, too. Escorts/whores/prostitutes in RL often get treated terribly, by the clients and by others; the money may be good but you pay for it on multiple levels. I don't get that damage in SL because the clients have all been courteous and kind, so far. If people look down on the profession in SL, it doesn't stop me from having a great SL and finding out every cool thing available when I'm not working.

As to how it affects my RL.... those who matter know what I'm doing in SL, and they don't mind. The main thing there is that I do not neglect my real life for my Second Life.

I think that people will certainly experiment with things here in SL that they would never consider in RL. A large part of that is the fact that it's 'safe' - you can't actually be harmed, you can always TP away or quit the SL Client...

Personally, I find the idea of having virtual sex for money with any idiot who offers the right amount to me to be quite repugnant. I would never work as an Escort or some other form of SL prostitute, nor would I dance in a club as a stripper, or take a fling at being auctioned off in a 'tail sale' where one is 'sold' to the highest bidder and splits the profits with the auction holder (Tail Sales and the like are not always for sex, but that is usually what the buyer is bidding for). I found I got extremely upset when I witnessed someone I cared for allow herself to be auctioned off at a Tail Sale. I had not known the nature of the event, until she was 'on the auction block', and the lewd comments started flying... I found it upset me as much as if I watched a loved one do it in real life, and I later told her how I felt. I was very relieved when she later decided she disliked that idea as much as I did, and that she would never do it again.

At the same time, I realize that some people in SL really enjoy such work, or at least find it a profitable way to earn Lindens, when they have few other skills. In RL I know several women who work as strippers. I don't hold that choice against them, but I would never do it myself. Personally, that is why I learned to be a builder and clothing designer - so I could earn a good living in SL and never have to rely on such methods to raise money.

I would not consider the idea of 'owning a slave' in real life. Yet I have several friends who like to roleplay as passionate "Pets", love slaves belonging to others. I would never be a Pet myself, yet I find I have agreed to becoming the "owner" of several of them, for roleplay purposes. As with the Goreans and their slaves, "Pet Play" is a consensual game. The Goreans, in my opinion, carry it too far, but that is their choice. My own choice is that I will not play in their way, and as my SL appearance ia almost always female, I wouldn't be allowed a dominant role with them anyway. I have done things with my chosen SL lovers that I wouldn't ever do in RL. Again, it's roleplay, in a 'safe' environment. We agree in advance as to what is acceptable and what is not, and then do the roleplay. It's far safer than attempting such things in real life. And I never date anyone in RL whom I may know from on-line encounters, so it never flows over into my real relationships.

I don't gamble in Real Life, and I don't gamble in SL. So that is no impact on me.

As for the "demon" the first poster mentioned... Well, to each their own. I guess. I wouldn't read that much into it. People have a lot of strange forms here.

Cindy,

Yes, there are suggestible people everywhere and SL should not be any different in this regard. I would think that almost all of us are suggestible to various degrees in some aspects of living.

Do you acknowledge that it is "possible" that SL has some properties that make it (even slightly) more likely (statistically) than typical RL interactions to be harmful to suggestible people? If this is at all possible, is it not worth it to discuss it without labeling it as an attempt to impose moral values or control.

Counter-question: Is American TV a vast wasteland of formulaic, unimaginative tripe? Don't you think most of that is due to the level of regulatory control the government (and various moral watchdogs) have placed on the medium?

So if you want SL to become a grey, colorless haven for cliche and conformity, go ahead. Regulate, warn, label and suck the creative juices right out of its heart by worrying over a tiny minority of troubled people who cannot separate fantasy from reality. After all, their freely-made adult decisions are our responsibility.

Here comes Post-Humanism.

Regulate, warn, label and suck the creative juices right out of its heart by worrying over a tiny minority of troubled people who cannot separate fantasy from reality. After all, their freely-made adult decisions are our responsibility.[/QUOTE]

I do not think the added suggestability of SL is for the weak-minded: it just affects such individuals to a greater degree-- also probably faster. I think the power of SL to change views and opinions applies to EVERYONE-- only the rate of change varies.

I submit that this kind of power, as embedded in SL could be a kind of therapy for people in need of practice interacting positively with others for instance.

Also... it could change overall viewpoints and make more acceptable previously marginalized ways of interacting with people and traditionally less accepted philosophies and beliefs.

And.. let me add.. there is another aspect of SL affecting people thru their avatars that goes to the speed at which we players, thru our avatars might accept ideas faster, one that product marketers and politicans have used for years: symbology. I think we are more exposed to symbols within SL than in RL because SL is so.. well.. condensed-- so the symbols have a greater density. I worry that while many of the symbols I see in SL are positive... I wonder how long until negative ones appear... or if they are already there.
You tell me.

To the time before. Before Internet. Before TV and radio. Back to when only the written word music, and theater were our diversions. There were those then that decried these devices as allowing far too much suggestion to the audiences. The erotic noireque books whose sole purpose was to wrap a light story line around sexual depravity. The theater of depravity - vaudeville. The decadence of theater and entertainment in the 20s 30s and 40s. Moulin Rouge only barely scratched that surface in a relatively sanitary and movie-approved sort of way! Music and dance also delivered against this norm - observe the immense library of suggestive and bawdy drinking songs and suggestive music.

These same questions (OP) were tossed throughout history, in a frenzy of obligatory moral outrage, intellectual disscussion and enouement. Nothing has changed. From then until now. What drives all of this are the fundamental aspects of human nature. Nothing more, nothing less. The more you try to subsume declared moral depravity, the more fascinating it becomes. The stronger the draw it has on those who are psychologically predisposed to immerse themselves in it.

The argument could be made that we can affect more people now than ever before in this way. Wrong. The vast majority of the world's population can and has been able to read for decades if not centuries. Theater was and is delivered at all levels of society, sophisticated to vulgar. Less so now as an external medium, because we can instead of going to a theater someplace else bring it into our homes.


In the final analysis you are looking at human nature not second life. If you confuse the two you are failing in your analysis and should begin again at the beginning. And truthfully, when the day comes and all the trappings of technology either fall away or are disgarded for something entirely new and un-looked-for in our own experience - it will still be human nature that will be the driver of it all.

Peace to you all!