Avatar Decsions/Actions Impact First Life?

I am interested in people's reactions to whether the choices, fundamentally moral choices, our avatars make might impact the first life person. And, if you agree how much is the impact?

Let me now give some background as to what brought this question to mind:

First, a girl just starting SL that initally told me she would never be a prostitute, became one in less than 24 hours.

Second, another person I met was convinced that the casinos in SL really "addicted" her (within SL)-- but she seemed to imply that it could affect her in real life.

Finally, I was out testing a flight vehicle when I stumbled upon the slave-owning area of Gorham or whatever it is called and a notecard popped up that explained that if I ventured to the wrong parts of this area I would be subject to their law and my avatar would be quite possibly raped! Then, when venturing to Heaven in the Clouds or some such, they have a rule there that indicates that if you violate their rules, you can get the same punishment! (And, yes, the Lindens informed me you can always teleport away.) But, regarding the Heaven in the Clouds area... I teleported in when this punishment was being handed out... and due to my location, I initally thought my avatar was the one about to get it! (And this is before I knew of the teleport option.) Now... I must admit... the prospect of my avatar getting raped was rather disconcerting to say the least! And.. it was then I realized how INVESTED I am in my avatar. And.. thinking back to the two incidents regarding prostitiution and gambling, I want to put forth the idea for discussion of how our avatar choices might just impact our first lives.

Where I am going with this is to suggest that while there is a PG and Mature side of things... we adults, when we choose to depart from the moral choices that characterize our daily first lives, might in fact be having some kind of an effect (or laying a groundwork) for some kind of impact in real life without realizing it.

Let me now take this one step further... consider the whole undead dimension of SL... Then add in that even many artifacts, for instance furniture in SL, is blood red. Blood red fountains are even in operation in many venues. Is there an impact here?

Then one other item: at one club recently, an owner had a pretty good Hollywoodesque avatar of a demon. It was impressive.. but.. to ask people in the place... it was admiration... and not any sense of anything else. While I can appreciate the skill and aestheitics (though it is not to my taste or orientation), shouldn't some other chord be struck as well?

And, I would draw a distinction between vampires-- a creation of literature and demons that in some religious traditions are viewed as things best not to represent and embrace.

I would also draw a distinction between playing a demon and that of a Goth or a vampire. Shouldn't one wonder about why there is no reaction to this?

Lastly, this full fledged demon avatar is not the only demon type I have encountered. I met two very helpful avatars with horns. But, if we assume a tie in between avatar and first life, I wonder if the people running these avatars are... not entirely realizing that an avatar- real life connection is a kind of hazard....

Finally, some background on me. I am not trying to raise any sort of Christian argument here and I am not out to 'save souls'... though people certainly can chime in from various religious perspectives. And, I have played Everquest 2 and seen and slain my share of demon types... but... those were computer controlled. Even in D&D or whatever roleplaying game you care to mention, the demon type bad-guy opponent is not seriously invested in by the DM. Here, in SL, for an avatar to literally don that persona... it is more that acting I think... but... this is where I hope for your responses. Oh.. and it may just be coincidence but... the girl that said she would never be a prostitute... she's working at the demon's club.

For real? You're worried about demons? Have a hot cup of cocoa, that might help.

I would worry more about the wolves in avatar form..

Not literally- not saying werewolves/furries are bad etc.

I'd worry about those who seek to use SL to hurt people out of game, be it emotionally, or lure them into their web and physically.

They don't need a demon avatar for that..they could be that tiny bunny in the pink sundress..

People also use demon costumes in Halloween and Carnival. I really think you are taking things waaaaaay too seriously

With the once in a lifetime chance of celebrating the day of satan, 6/6/06, you are worried about people dressed up as demons. Come one

Heaven in the Clouds does not "rape" anyone for any reason, it's a "Free Sex Community", meaning people hang out and sometimes they agree to have sex with each other. They might ban you for harrassing other members, but you cannot be raped without your consent -- which makes it roleplay, not rape.

Same with Gor - you cannot be raped in SL without your consent, due to your ability to TP or just CTRL-Q. If you want to roleplay being raped, that's different, but it's still not technically rape.

You're worried about nothing.

I fear that many reactions to your post may miss the forest for the trees. I think your mulling on ethics is laudable, and I think it's a topic that not a few people also find themselves reviewing.

There are, in fact, fairly regular ethics discussions in world, which I think is probably a good thing.

My sense is that the SL world, by virtue of a number of oft-discussed features (search these forums and you'll find this) such as the short day, the intermediation of the system, and pseudonymity...tends to bring out behaviors that might perhaps otherwise be reined in. I don't have a judgement as to whether it's good or bad yet. Certainly there are social maladroits, but that's been true in RL for as long as there have been people.

I decided to look for balance, and though certain things take a little searching, it is quite possible to find places where people look generally human, and enjoy coffee shops and poetry readings rather than escort services. There are also places that, while affecting netherworld-esque tones, are actually gathering places for insightful, intelligent, fun people.

Your point about finding yourself in nefarious places without perhaps knowing how to get out may be the paramount consideration I identify in your message. Though I'd be surprised to see anyone in a non-consensual predicament at Heaven Above the Clouds, in Gor I would think it's all too likely. (No aspersion intended to Goreans, things are what they are.) Had you landed in Rausch, you would likely have been *killed* in the first 2 minutes. There are clearly areas that require some forethought prior to visiting.

In RL, I used to have a lot of experience with the security of the Internet, and was fond of saying it was like the street...there are good people and bad people, and good neighborhoods and less savory ones. I submit that SL isn't like the street...it is the street. I suppose our question as a society is how best to develop social processes that provide the requisite cautionary information early enough in people's new lives.

It would be interesting to know how you handle travelling in strange cities in RL, by contrast.

Thanks for an interesting post.

On the nature of our avatars:
Our avatars are our embodiment within the SL metaverse. Many believe their avatar expresses 'who they are' more accurately than their RL body ever could.

That said, our avatars also provide a vehicle to allow us to explore aspects of our Selves in a way that is not as harmful as exploring those aspects might be in RL. The prostitution you mention could be an example of this. It is safer to live out that fantasy in SL where some pimp is not going to bitchslap you and steal all of your money (or worse), as might happen in RL. The emotional harm associated with prostitution could be just as real, though. On the other hand, being able to explore one's personality and desires (banal, carnal, and otherwise) in SL could provide an incredibly enlightening experience.

On Goreans:
The moment one of those gorean asshats thinks to roleplay raping me is the moment I'll decide to take my lightsaber and roleplay a little 'involuntary gender redesignation' on said asshat.

THIS THREAD will show you more on how these people treat their guests.

-Ghoti

When alts converse with each other in a thread, it affects me in real life.

^^ There's a demon to fear

I can never realy get this idea. I am no more my avatar is sl then I am my avatar in any other game. If I was my avatar then so many things than it is rediculous. I would be at least 3 different gods who either controled the evolution of a planet, used his minions to take over an entire solarsystem, or who feedes people to his pet to have him build up muscle. I would also have saved the world from; halos, zombies, aliens, sentient pigs, robots, and men. I would be the mayor of hunderds of towns and cities in various states of finantial health and 50 different people who can't even pee without a higher power telling them to. I would be the general of amies of giant mechs and the general of 3 spear men. I would have convenced a sith to jump to her death and yet failed to do it at the same time. I would have also died a few thousand times and when to hell more times than I can count. Added to all that I would be some kind gnome/elf/drawf/human/ogre/halfling hybred with +5 to every roll for every weapon known and imagined and epic level everything. And added to all that I would be a yellow ant. Sure all of those have some part of me but to say any of them are me is unthinkable. I am water filled meat sack not a bunch of stats or some 2d planes rendered by a decendent of a program to test radiation sheilding.

The thread he references discusses people being told to visit the PRIVATE sim, they need to use a avatar proper with the setting. All they ask is remove the costume..so really, ignore the anti-Gor asshats too.

Some people in SL 'play' as other things, some are just themselves. My avatar looks a lot like me, as close as I could get with the tools available, dresses like me, and when I'm in SL, I'm just being me. So I very much identify with my avatar as me. But then, I'm not here for a game, I view and use SL as something else.

And no, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with being something other than yourself, or playing a game.

I'm going to deconstruct your post bit by bit, because, really, it's more a collection of unrelated topics than one meta-topic.



Then that person is as weak-willed in SL as they are in RL.



Completely different issue - gambling addiction is gambling addiction, regardless of the interface used, be it a SL slot machine, a poker table on an online casino, the craps table in a real casino, or a high-stakes betting operation out of Don Tony's house. Read up more on the subject if your interested - Second Life has nothing to do with it.



Technicly speaking, it's not rape - rape can't be consentual. (Don't give me "but statutory rape...", because you know damn well that's a whole different issue involving age of consent and unfair influence. The closest you can come to being raped in SL is you can roleplay it out, but that would be consentual, and hence not rape.

Further, however, your investment in your avatar is your issue, not ours. Am I attached to my avatar? Sure. He's me, in a very real way. But I don't pretend he's somehow mythicly connected to me - I've had my avatar killed a few times in SL, and all manner of brutal mutilation due to sandbox accidents, a couple dozen beheadings when I found a working guillotine, etc. At no point do I feel "threatened" by it.



Who you are in SL is who you are in RL - A person who wouldn't find roleplaying rape already erotic in RL isn't going to find it erotic in SL. SL allows some freedom from things like embaressment - certainly I would never go clothes shopping dressed as a giant anthomorphic fox, because I don't much like making a spectacle out of myself... but at the same time, I have no *fundamental* objection to doing so.

You're kinda treading down the same road that Jack Thompson and his ilk do - video games are evil hypno-programming tools. And it's as bunk there as it is here. A video game or SL cannot make people rape or murder people if they are mentallty balanced. An unbalanced individual? Who knows. But anything could cause an unbalanced individual to do terrible things - that's the whole problem with being unbalanced.



No. Absolutely not.

My opinion of most SL vampires is about akin to my opinion of goreans, but when you find the rare one that has enough fashion sense to move beyond flat colors and bad shading, a lot the black and dark reds/purples color scheme is actually quite attractive. Color does not an evil person make.



Why? Do you think people are so weak-willed that they can't step outside the bounds of normalcy for a while without danger?

Most of the worst people I've met in SL have utterly mundane avatars.



Your religious tradition. Yours. Not everyones.



No.



Because there is no connection of the sort your are implying, for any mentally-balanced individual, there is no hazard.



You obviously haven't played much D&D - players and DMs both play evil characters, even demons, and sometimes become quite invested in them. I myself play a dwarf that I'm very attached to... But when I get up from the table, I don't have an urge to dig underground, throw a drunken kegger, and become a workaholic, any more than my friend who plays a half-demon has an urge to go defile him some altars or draw evil symbols on walls.

It's both more than acting and less, in SL - It's more like self-expression. The anonymous nature of the internet allows a lot of guards to drop on personality. I tend to feel a SL avatar is far more true to the nature of the person than their real self, in terms of how they present and carry themselves in SL. But it's not a two-way spiritual connection. You do not start channeling your character.

It's a co-incidence. We already established the woman has no willpower, which is a RL problem.

Avatars are not costumes any more than the face you wear in real life is a costume.

We went over all of this in the thread that I referenced.

-Ghoti

This kind of discussion always interests me.

Just to touch on the prostitution question. My thought is that a person who would not become a prostitute in RL, yet acts as one in a virtual world is indeed reflecting their personal mores. This person sees the two acts as being different, or at least different enough that they wouldn't do the first (perhaps because of risk of arrest, disease, violence, etc.), yet are fine with the second (anonymous, etc.). The only way to get a true sense would be to ask the person involved.

If you're asserting that sex for money is universally immoral, then that is another discussion.

Excellent point about Thompson, Reitsuki. I hadn't thought of him -- usually people who point to imagined connections between an individual's online/game personna and their RL personna have either not tried it themselves (and are applying ill-fitting moral judgments) or have the very problems they're accusing others of having.



In my online lifetime, which stretches back some 12 years or so to IRC and text MUDs, I've been a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk drug addict/prostitute, a dark elf necromancer, an insane vampire, an absent-minded halfelf bard, a demoness of the underworld and an aspiring clothing and hair designer But in RL, I'm none of those things and still manage to have a great family and career. Maybe, just maybe, I have a great imagination but know where it stops and reality begins?


A great topic. If you start it, I'll respond!

I'd like to make a general comment of the morals/ethics aspects of this debate, then take the discussion towards a completely separate direction.

On the morals issues, I would like to make the observation that any good art, any good entertainment, irrespective of its media be it literature, music, theater, film, games or virtual worlds MUST effect our values and morals. It may be positive, it may be negative, it may be small, it may be large, but if it doesn't effect us and our values in some way, then it is worthless and has ultimately failed.

I recently wrote a book on sex in SL, I hope it effected peoples values to the positive, it might have effected them to the negative, but it had to effect the persons values in one direction or the other.

------

And now for something completely different....

One effect I've found that decisions made by my avatar effecting RL is clothing. I'm finding my fashion expression and choices in RL are much more expressive and even sensual after making such choices in SL. I recently bought this gorgeous dress and corset that I don't think I would have ever considered purchasing without the influence of SL.

I'm assuming this is true for others, and am wondering about the effects of virtual worlds and the clothing expressions will have a major effect on the fashion industry in the future.

Nonsense. I'm quite content if people simply enjoy my art for what it is. I'm not out to change anyone.

If you're an adult, you should be able to handle what SL holds.
If not... well... why aren't you in the Teen Grid?

Overall, I don't find anything in SL intrusive. All groups (Gor, Vampires, etc) seem to realize that not all people might share their view. They post signs, they are 'playing' in a separate area, they don't harass anyone, they respect that not all people are into this and that.

What more can you ask for?

The mind is everything; what you think, you become.

Buddha

Exactly.



I believe the difference here is that the programs you describe are games, whereas SL is a virtual world. Games can certainly occur here (and boy, do they) but the focus of SL is not strictly that one game or that one roleplaying environment. I've been online gaming since the days of MUDs as well (since 1992 for me), and I've been elves and werewolves and mages of the cult of ecstacy, etc. None of those characters were 'me' and yet each was flavored by my own personality. SL is different. Here we do not roll up a character. Here there are no monsters to fight (well ,except those we find on the forums ). Here there are no levels or a way to 'win'. SL is not a game in that sense.

Events within SL may not be occuring in the real world, but they are not wholey disconnected from it either.

-Ghoti

I wouldn't say that's true for everyone. Take myself for instance. The avitar that feels most "Me" is my mouse form. However, I have two other avitars that I frequently use if I DON'T want to be me, but instead be Talon Lardner. There's certain things I'd do in these avitars that I wouldn't in my mouse form. Also, I'm perfectly willing to don my human form if requested for some strange reason. To me, avitars are neither myself digitalized nor just a simple costume. They are what I choose to be in second life at that moment, Not what I am, but what Talon Lardner is at that moment.

Avatars don't make choices...




First, that's a heck of an assumption. You might as well assume that playing Hamlet will make you suicidal, or that having the lead role in Cats would make you, well, a cat.

What is this hazard you speak of? It is only a danger when you can no longer distinguish fantasy from reality. Can you?