Should protests against Linden Lab policies and actions be against TOS? I was informed today that my group title protesting against Linden Lab policies and actions are wrong, and that I must not defame Linden Lab. Sounds kinda like Linden Lab want's to hide behind their TOS and keep people from critizing their actions, No?
In the early days of SL, protests against Linden Lab policnes such as taxes and other issues influenced change in the SL world. What do you think?
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Protests Against SL TOS? |
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Hank Ramos
Lifetime Scripter
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
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01-06-2006 07:33
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
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01-06-2006 07:37
Keeping people from defaming the company sounds like a good business decision.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
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01-06-2006 07:38
What title did you have?
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Cristiano
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
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01-06-2006 07:39
Protests against Linden Lab policies and actions should not be against TOS - defaming them should be againt the TOS.
_/ _____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-06-2006 07:41
Protests against Linden Lab policies and actions should not be against TOS - defaming them should be againt the TOS. _/ Defaming them, or anyone else, is covered under the TOS: any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable _____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
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Hank Ramos
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01-06-2006 07:41
Protests against Linden Lab policies and actions should not be against TOS - defaming them should be againt the TOS. _/ Protesting anything by definition is defamation. If you say a company does something or their policy is wrong, then you are defaming them. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-06-2006 07:43
Hank in another thread you publicly stated that Linden Lab purposely damages the accounts of residents they do not like. You aren't just simply protesting their policies - you have crossed a line into territory that is going to end up getting you banned or sued, or both.
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Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
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Hank Ramos
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01-06-2006 07:46
Hank in another thread you publicly stated that Linden Lab purposely damages the accounts of residents they do not like. You aren't just simply protesting their policies - you have crossed a line into territory that is going to end up getting you banned or sued, or both. So you are saying that I'm going to be sued in RL or kicked out of SL by Linden Labs for protesting the actions that their employees did in violation of their own TOS (well, I guess technically the TOS allows the company to change/do anything at anytime, so it's by definition in the TOS that LL cannot violate the TOS)? Wow, I didn't think Philip was capable of doing such a thing, but that's a serious statement to make. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-06-2006 07:48
So you are saying that I'm going to be sued in RL or kicked out of SL by Linden Labs for protesting the actions that their employees did in violation of their own TOS (well, I guess technically the TOS allows the company to change/do anything at anytime, so it's by definition in the TOS that LL cannot violate the TOS)? Wow, I didn't think Philip was capable of doing such a thing, but that's a serious statement to make. No, I said that you making public statements that Linden Lab is purposely damaging customer accounts out of spite, causing inventory loss and database problems for those customers they dislike, is what is going to get you into trouble. Nice attempt to try to once again wrap yourself in "I'm just protesting policies" when you are doing a lot more than that. _____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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01-06-2006 07:49
Should protests against Linden Lab policies and actions be against TOS? I was informed today that my group title protesting against Linden Lab policies and actions are wrong, and that I must not defame Linden Lab. Sounds kinda like Linden Lab want's to hide behind their TOS and keep people from critizing their actions, No? In the early days of SL, protests against Linden Lab policnes such as taxes and other issues influenced change in the SL world. What do you think? If you can post that (without violating the TOS or any other contractual agreements), then you should, because any discussion is meaningless without it. In fact, there was a whole thread before about a previous title you wore without any clear idea of what it was that the title actually said. It's also dubious IMO that you cold put enough text in a title to protest anything without resorting to some fairly generalised and inflammatory statements that would likely be hard to defend. _____________________
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Hank Ramos
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Join date: 15 Nov 2003
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01-06-2006 07:50
No, I said that you making public statements that Linden Lab is purposely damaging customer accounts out of spite, causing inventory loss and database problems for those customers they dislike, is what is going to get you into trouble. I never said that. I said that Linden Labs will modify the database (i.e. kick someone out of a group) at the request of a regular resident. |
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Hank Ramos
Lifetime Scripter
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
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01-06-2006 07:54
If you can post that (without violating the TOS or any other contractual agreements), then you should, because any discussion is meaningless without it. In fact, there was a whole thread before about a previous title you wore without any clear idea of what it was that the title actually said. To post the title (in Patriot Act-like fashion) would be to violate the TOS. Basically, it said that Second Life was a type of government run by Linden Labs, a form of government that uses censorship and stringent social and economic controls to enforce order. But that's besides the point. I understand the need in the TOS to keep people from protesting against (defaming) people inworld. But the question is, should LL be immune from protesting (defamation) as well? |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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01-06-2006 07:55
Should protests against Linden Lab policies and actions be against TOS? I was informed today that my group title protesting against Linden Lab policies and actions are wrong, and that I must not defame Linden Lab. Sounds kinda like Linden Lab want's to hide behind their TOS and keep people from critizing their actions, No? In the early days of SL, protests against Linden Lab policnes such as taxes and other issues influenced change in the SL world. What do you think? What? Details. Prove this to me. coco P.S. Wait, I think this is it: "I was informed today that my group title protesting..." Who informed you? If it was another player, who cares. If it was a Linden, that is cause for concern. _____________________
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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01-06-2006 07:56
You wanna try criticising some other companies and see how far you get!
Go post on Lionheads board, for example, with something remotely critical of them - or even point out a bug in their game - and they will delete the thread, permaban you from their boards, and in some cases revoke your membership - which means no access to game facilities, downloads (including patches, content) etc. For a game you have purchased. Because you dared to point out a flaw. I'm constantly amazed what LL will put up with from their customers, frankly. |
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Zonax Delorean
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 767
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01-06-2006 07:56
I never said that. I said that Linden Labs will modify the database (i.e. kick someone out of a group) at the request of a regular resident. 1. Are you saying that Linden Labs -- who are applauded by some people for not kicking the bush guy because he didn't break the ToS -- is disregarding the ToS in your case? Is there any proof for this? If yes, what is it? 2. Do we, or do we not have free speech? If there is censorship, maybe we don't. |
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Shep Korvin
The Lucky Chair Guy
Join date: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 305
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01-06-2006 07:58
If you stand in the middle of a branch of MacDonalds, and start yelling about the poor quality of their food or their dubious business practices.... do you expect the management of MacDonalds to let you stay there very long?
Sure, everybody has a right of protest... but at some point you'll get kicked out to protest on the street, rather than in the middle of the store. |
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Hank Ramos
Lifetime Scripter
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
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01-06-2006 07:59
If you stand in the middle of a branch of MacDonalds, and start yelling about the poor quality of their food or their dubious business practices.... do you expect the management of MacDonalds to let you stay there very long? Sure, everybody has a right of protest... but at some point you'll get kicked out to protest on the street, rather than in the middle of the store. Maybe a better question would be... Is SL... 1. A Game run by Linden Lab? 2. A New World founded by Linden Lab? |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
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01-06-2006 08:00
I never said that. I said that Linden Labs will modify the database (i.e. kick someone out of a group) at the request of a regular resident. Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. You don't clarify that in your statement, Hank, you simply refer to having "database accidents" happen to them. It is a direct statement of intentional harm being caused by Linden Lab. Furthermore, you have made a pretty strong statement against Chip Midnight there as well - accusing him and "several other content creators" of not only in world harassment and threats, but RL ones as well. Those are serious accusations, and again, go beyond "protesting policies". _____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
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Azrael Baphomet
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 93
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01-06-2006 08:00
So you called them fascists?
You created a group accusing LL of being fascists? I wonder, would microsoft let me use one of their servers to host a web page calling the company a collection of baby killers? |
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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01-06-2006 08:02
Maybe a better question would be... Is SL... 1. A Game run by Linden Lab? 2. A New World founded by Linden Lab? 3. A privately owned service with a ToS you already agreed to. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-06-2006 08:03
3. A privately owned service with a ToS you already agreed to. That doesn't have the same lurid effect as Phillip Linden as Mussolini. _____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
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Hank Ramos
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01-06-2006 08:04
3. A privately owned service with a ToS you already agreed to. Well, that would fall under choice #1. |
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Hank Ramos
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01-06-2006 08:05
So you called them fascists? You created a group accusing LL of being fascists? I wonder, would microsoft let me use one of their servers to host a web page calling the company a collection of baby killers? But Linden Labs touts Second Life as a World, and not a game/service. You can't have it both ways. It can't be a vast new world to replace the Internet, yet be a game at the same time. If so, SL is more like Prodigy than the Internet. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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01-06-2006 08:06
I never said that. I said that Linden Labs will modify the database (i.e. kick someone out of a group) at the request of a regular resident. here's your exact quote from this thread Actually, people like Chip and several other content creators work closely with LL to control things in SL. It's not a conspiracy theory but fact. Some residents can get special favors or have "database accidents" happen to people they don't agree with. Several residents have been affected, silenced, banned, harassed, threatened in SL and in RL from these people. They aren't your friends. You think I'd just throw away the years I've spent in SL, the things I've created, the friendships I've made just to throw it all away on some kind of delision? LL is corrupt and so are the members of the FIC, whether they realize it or not. Protesting is fine. These kinds of accusations are not. Under the terms of service you could be banned for it. LL is incredibly tolerant. I can't think of any other company that would let you make those kinds of false accusations against them on their own forums. Edit: Didn't notice that Cristiano had already quoted that. Oops. _____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Hank Ramos
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Join date: 15 Nov 2003
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01-06-2006 08:07
here's your exact quote from this thread Protesting is fine. These kinds of accusations are not. Under the terms of service you could be banned for it. LL is incredibly tolerant. I can't think of any other company that would let you make those kinds of false accusations against them on their own forums. So being kicked from a group as an officer and having your land seized wasn't true? I just dreamed it all up? The database either changed itself or I was hallucinating? |
