Philip Linden Teaches People How to Steal Content

Irrelavent.

Apparently nothing can be done about it, and LL isn't going to do anything about obvious cases until they piss off someone major. (A. chung et al)

At best, they'd lose some major business.

At worst, LL could find themselves sued by someone with the money to see it thru to the end.

On LL creating a technical solution:

There is absolutely NO way, whatsoever to secure graphical textures.

PERIOD.

It would be pointless for LL to put effort into this. All it would serve to do is take time away from more productive things like bug fixes.

Any suggestion that there is a technical fix is laughable since textures can be read from the video memory directly.


On LL's apparent inaction on IP theft:

This, I do agree that LL had dropped the ball. With the impossibility of a technical fix, they should put effort into an enforceable policy for these issues. Though I think Surreal's idea is a bit overly complex, it is the right direction to move in, IMO.

For clarity's sake, reposting something else that i have in another thread:

WoW's "warden" program watches memory for known trainers and exploits, and shuts down the client if it finds one running.

Why can't LL do this? There are only a handful of theif programs, afaik.

Because one of the main ways to get textures uses the very basic workings of the 3D graphics API in use. To monitor that would probably break or tank the performance for the 99.9% of the userbase that's legit.

Thats not what i mean. Theres an actual program that has to run alongside SL to grab the textures (using the innner workings, etc). (I've tried it out, it can be set up so that when you hit a hotkey, the textures of anything in view range get saved to files)

Search for this program, and if its found running, client shuts down.

It's not really "a program", though. It's more of a library, set of procedures that tell the SL game client how to specifically draw things on the particular computer the client is being run. The catch is, this library thing is also present (because it's needed just the same) on computers which are completely "innocent". So you cannot 'shut down if it's detected' because it's _always_ there in one form or another.

An analogy if you will, this is like your web browser being replaced by a web browser that looks the same, functions the same, allows you to browse a web and comes with ability to take snapshot of web page you browse at press of a button. The issue isn't detecting web browser -- it's always there just to allow you to view web pages. The issue is how to tell that particular browser the person is using... has this 'take snaphot at press of button' ability.

Well. I've been reading the posts about LL needing to deal with all those people stealing textures and other forms of infringment.

<sigh>

Ok. First, let's set the ground rules of what can be done and what can't...

- It is impossible to cross scan for duplicate textures due to the size of SL.
- It is impossible to stop someone from ripping textures due to the fact the HARDWARE does not encrypt it.
- It is going to get worse once SL decentralizes. Not better.
- This is EXACTLY the same thing the music/movie industry has been trying, and failing, to fight for ages now.

<shakes head>

Ok. We know what can't be done. Technical solutions are not going to happen.

Let's look at what I hear people requesting to be done:

- SL can create content mediators, and place in the TOS that they have the rights to mediate content creator disputes...

Oh. I LOVE this idea. It's a thing of BEAUTY! Let's run through a couple of scenarios, hmmnnn?

1. Two people have the same texture, and both lay claim to it's use. They both have sourcefiles and the final upload texture is the same. One seems to have a PSD original, but it's odd in it's design and possibly fake. The other user seems to have uploaded their's first, but does not have a PSD due to a 'hard drive crash'... Who wins?

2. Single user complains that a corporate sponser stole his texture illegally. The sponser says they bought it legally for use in SL. The single user says he was never paid, and the company shows an unsigned recept. (choose the texture originator and tick off a company owning 100 sims, or go with the company and get eaten alive on the forums for being souless monsters... Wheee!)

This is not even considering that any dispute mediation would have to be paid for by the accusing party. Anyone want to plunk down $50 minimum to pay for the mediator salary while he's looking into it? The accuser is not going to pay, that's for certain. So I want to accuse someone, plunk down $50, and then watch as even after he finds in my favor, the bugger doing it just quitting and rejoining and doing it all over again...

Worse: The final word on the matter is that LL cannot legally nor morally mediate the issue due to their own income being recieved from both parties, in possibly widely differing amounts. Even if they ARE being fair, no one would believe it, and the battlecry of FIC would ride again!

If you think someone is stealing from you and that it's significant, use the formula that's tried and true: If the amount you are losing is more than the court costs, then file claim and have a lawyer request the customer records. Sadly, the fact that such information can be faked by the user when joining is another problem that copyright holders have been fighting for ages now. Don't even get me started about international laws. <snort>

Some people would argue this is no differant than griefing. Fact is, it's MUCH differant. Griefing is assault. It's a pure conflict dealt with by reading a sim log and seeing the chat and push logs. Texture mediation deals with tons of issues that LL has no log on, such as when the texture was made and what was happening between the parties such as payment.

Considering I've had books I've written stolen in less than a week after release, I feel your pain. I am also here to tell you: People steal, and it costs far too much to chase them down.

If someone can find a solution, then everyone here would be gratified to hear it. No one anywhere has talked about finding one yet, though.

atlease spelling right DRAMA

I found a solution that I'm using - don't create content for LL. No content = no SL. It makes no difference to me, the only people who suffer are those that liked my stuff, i tell those people to be pissed at LL because they are to blame. Want to grief someone? Grief Lindens.

As I understand it, some files must be placed in the SL directory to use this method. Not overwritten, added.

Would it be terribly difficult or use a lot of resources to look for the existence of said files (before the client is actually launched into live, in-world mode) and then have the client notify LL of their existence?

Thanks for posting the log. I couldn't make it that day.

What I was hoping from that meeting was more reassurance and a definite timeframe on when LL will start to finally shift thru the DMCA claims and act on them. And even present actual numbers on how many DMCA claims resulted in the guilty parties items being taken away and punishment issued. But apparently, coming from an email of the Linden in charge of this, this is too hard/expensive to do. I also hoped there would be talk about developing a better permissions system.

Instead there's a 10 minute debate on how to reverse engineer a .psd file. Way to go on deflecting the meat of the topic, Phil. But from the whole convo, I felt like he blew them off the moment he nitpicked on how the cases of theft were counted. Plus that ill-placed comment and implying the good looks of the ladies were intended to make him sway to their side.

We're more than pretty faces, Phillip. Trying to pacify the situation by stroking at their vanity? Jezus. Perhaps you'll understand us better when this SL is copied code by code and resold by another software team with no compensation heading your way.

Oh and this ...

Hell hath no fury than a dozen women scorned.

Actually there's a way to do this that doesn't require another program.

<raised eyebrow>

Ayup. LL is to blame. Always comes down to that.

Please, explain to me how the fact that thieves exist is LL's fault? If we're talking about their unwillingness to get involved with what is a LEGAL ISSUE, when they are not a legally responsable group, then perhaps we should blame the owners of every ISP that allows illegal media to travel over their bandwidth?

Why not? They have access to all the data! They can see it coming and going! Why not filter , search, and have THEM deal with the miscreant when the recording industry requests it?

Oh, wait! That was TRIED already and became one of the biggest bugger-ups of the century! It was even seen in some circles as ILLEGAL! Either way, the ISPs refused too.


I know you're upset, but try to bring yourself to the table instead of turning it over in a tantrum. I'm not finding a solution yet myself, and am really interested in finding one. Like I said. I have books I would like to protect.

i run for cover when i piss one off

those ladies arent just pretty faces...

If i understand it right, this (placing library in the folder with the program) is the easiest and most convenient way to force program to use such library, but it's not required. When a program requests link to such library the operating system starts in the folder of that program, then goes through any number of folders specified in system variable (including folders that hold pieces of OS itself) and looks for the presence of library. When it's found, it's used, when it's not found, it returns error. So, the library in question could as well be placed in folder with OS components and appear completely genuine :/

Or the client could be modified to use only its approved version of library files and refuse to start up with modified ones. (CRC check FTW?)

Not a good idea with the way video card manufacturers and MS likes to upgrade DLLs without any warning. All it takes is one other video game needing an upgrade to the vid drivers to run killing SL and they would have potentially thousands of people screaming for blood.

Still thinking on it, though.

I'm not blaming the fact that thieves exist on LL, I'm blaming their total passivity and unwillingness to do anyting.
I've mentioned umpteen times now about how easy it is for me as a designer to have websites taken offline by simply writing to their host and providing my proof - original files.

LL could do something but they simply try to ignore it. The fact that phillip linden stood in front of an extrememly frustrated group of people who want answers/solutions/etc and told them how pretty they were sums up LL attitude to me.

Yes, LL are to blame for doing nothing.

well to be fair, he had to assume that all the women were menstruating and unreasonable and all emotional and shit

/comic relief

very well said

i agree completely

No idea if this is doable, but suspect that --in addition to issues mentioned above-- because the source code for openGL debugger is freely available, it wouldn't take long for someone to cook up version of the library that would appear completely like a 'genuine' thing, as far as security checks are concerned.

Ultimately it falls into "if it was *so* simple, people would've done it already rather than helplessly admit there isn't really technical solution available" ^^;;

edit: and btw, the ability to tap into SL graphics data is hardly "always evil" -- it also grants easy way to do things like surface baking for architecture items to emulate that nice soft lighting... or to get physical sculpts of one's avatar, like the one auctioned in last RFL event. Perhaps worth to consider while people are demanding to just have it killed, period.

What Philip said about creating PSD's is technically true - you could take a flat file and run it thru an application and automatically expand it out to layers with some fancy filtering and save it to a PSD.

It's also a total bullshit copout. Because anyone with half a brain and 10 seconds of comparing the real thing to the created copy could ascertain which was hand drawn and therefore authentic.

When it comes to complex stuff like avatar skins, you absolutely cannot fake the work that goes into it. I guarantee you that I could spot 100% of the time which was real and which was not, given both the real and software generated versions. And I'll wager pretty much any one of you could tell too, whether you've ever seen the skin making process or not.

I looked in the inworld search utility for events, with the search terms "steal content" and was unable to find any classes being conducted by either Philip Linden or Philip Rosedale. Does anyone know if these are regularly scheduled classes? Is there an admission charge?

For me, I will still make stuff. Right now, I'm taking a break, which I'm known for doing. It's disheartening to know no matter how much I try to fight for my rights, I can only go so far when the very system is indifferent to my situation.

Only thing I can see is, get your name out there more. Bring more to the table since you're person with the skills. Don't quit. Artists can evolve, get better. Thieves just stay thieves.

But relying on LL to assist in anything ... not likely. And if I had money to burn, I would take my issues to court. But I'm living hand to mouth like most.

See, I think expanding the permissions system would help. But people have been asking for this for the longest time and there hasn't ben ANY changes to it at all. And I've been here for two years already.

I could sell my textures with better restrictions, I would start selling them. This was something I've wanted to do, but the permissions system isn't at the level it should be to serve this purpose. You have the real artists holding off on truly expanding their business because of this, while the thieves just take it and make easy profits. The permission system needs an a complete overhaul with restrictions on unlinking prims or dropping scripts in them, relinking to a different roots, etc., etc., etc.

They're planning on placing convenants on land. What is the purpose of this and how will it translate to other transactions? Will they issue enforcement if the convenants were broken? Can content creators do this too? By having their customers agree to certain terms at each transaction can we hold them accountable if they go against those terms?

Compensation for infringements. Hit the scammers where it hurts, their wallets. Have yet to see any enforcement on this.

They punish people who IM thieves demanding an explanation (the thieves actually have the chutzpah to file an AR on them). Their justice is indeed blind, and sadly WAY OFF. They need to train each other better with this. Assign Lindens to permanently deal with this that way it'll be consistent cuz the same pairs of eyes are looking at it.

But there is no accountability. I've only seen a few Lindens take responsibility for muck ups, and in some instances, it's not really them who should take the blame. But most of the time it's deflect, deflect, deflect. Say it's too expensive, the workload is impossible to tackle. Whatever.

By helping us out, LL in turn helps themselves out. But they just keep seeing us as brainless consumers asking for technical solutions they smugly claim can't be done. So in turn, we see them as money-grubbing heartless souls who have no true sense about the world they're coding.

Well, is it really? It's not the Fraunhoffer Institute's (the creators of mp3) problem when someone shares an mp3 on Kazaa.

If you made the content, it's your job to police it and enforce it to ensure it isn't copied.