Summary and Logs - Neualtenburg RA Meeting for Nov. 6th, 2005

Notecards that were included in the Agenda will be posted in replies directly after this post (or will be linked to if they already exist in the forums). The Meeting log and Action Items will follow directly after the notecard details.

==================
Neualtenburg RA Meeting Agenda
November 6th, 2005
**Note: RA Procedures for Meetings (included for reference)


1. Proposal Bill: Neualtenburg Bonds 2
**Note: Details Proposal for: Bill: Neualtenburg Bonds 2


2. Proposal - Needed Builds for Neualtenburg - Neualtenburg Notary
**Note: Forum Discussion on Notary


3. Proposal - Needed Builds for Neualtenburg - Neualtenburg Bank
**Note: Forum Discussion on Bank


4. Proposal for Constitutional Amendment to Article VI, Section 2
**Note: Proposal for Constitutional Amendment


5. Confirmation Hearing for New SC Member - Aliasi Stonebender
**Note: Notice from Current head of SC

4. Proposal for Constitutional Amendment to Article VI, Section 2

Summary

Proposal to modify Article VI, Section 2 of the Neualtenburg Constitution to take into account that Neualtenburg is now a private sim, and thus "leaving the group" and "removing land tiers" is obsolete language. This also codifies the 30-day "grace period" for nonpayment into the constitution, with a reciprocial request for a 30-day notice before officially leaving.

Proposed Action:

That the section be revised to read as follows:

Citizens must give a 30-day notice before leaving the city. In return the city guarantees a hearing and a 30-day grace period before revoking citizenship for any reason.

Object-Name: notetaker beta 2
Region: Neualtenburg (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (174, 165, 172)
Region Meeting on 2005-11-06
Region Pendari Lorentz is in the chair.
Pendari Lorentz: Welcome everyone to the November 6th 2005 Neualtenburg RA Meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can you imagine that I had 4 meetings at the same time for 1 PM SL time? :) Whew.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and the notecards are *still* loading for me, Pen :)
Aliasi Stonebender: sheesh!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "sheesh" indeed, Al.
Pendari Lorentz: Agenda item 1. Proposal Bill: Neualtenburg Bonds 2
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yay it loaded!)
Sudane Erato: :)
Pendari Lorentz: RA thoughts on this proposal? This is a revamp of the first one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... now I just need to load the ones *inside*
Pendari Lorentz: haha Gwyn
Sudane Erato: well... 2 things improve it for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm listening...
Sudane Erato: one is that the financial pix of NBurg has improved
Pendari Lorentz: true
Sudane Erato: so there is more "value" to base any bonds on
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: and the other...
Sudane Erato: well the conversion of the existing loans
Sudane Erato: is voluntary
Sudane Erato: so primarily new bonds will really be new
Pendari Lorentz: yes... I think those were the two main worries when we were disucssing the first draft
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Sudane Erato: i think the whole system is rather complex
Sudane Erato: but I am basically for it
Pendari Lorentz: I have no real head for it.. but it *seems* like a good thing to me.. I guess I would wonder who would be in charge of maintaining the records? The treasurer?
Sudane Erato: well. thats a good question
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, good question.
Sudane Erato: I would prefer not to administer it
Sudane Erato: but perhaps
Sudane Erato: it can be rather fully automated
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does our illustrious Guildemeisterinn have to say on that? :)
Sudane Erato: and not really be an issue
Pendari Lorentz: if it could be automated.. that would be ideal for everyone I would think!
Kendra Bancroft: If it could be automated --that would be far more scalable
Sudane Erato: I think so
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so we need to know *who* is going to "automate" it?
Sudane Erato: hehe... yes
Sudane Erato: or alternative,ly
Kendra Bancroft: we should ask Satch if he could
Sudane Erato: who would administer it in the interim
Aliasi Stonebender: well, if it's in SL fundage, you need a scripter... and Satch is probably the best we have right now.
Sudane Erato: yes..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Sudane Erato: true
Pendari Lorentz: ok.. so RA members.. would you vote yes to this bill with the condition that it be worked as an automated process?
Sudane Erato: I would
Pendari Lorentz: I would
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ultimately, I guess the "banking/finantial" responsability falls upon the Guild, so it's up to the Guild to set it up :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And i would, yes.
Kendra Bancroft: I would say it should not be implemented until we are readu for automation
Pendari Lorentz: right Kendra
Sudane Erato: that makes sense
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How long would that take?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean the "automation" process.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1 week? 1 month?
Pendari Lorentz: So.. RA action on this proposal: 3 yes votes approves the bill.. the RA's condition is that the process must become an automated one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pen — I'm just raising the issue, because this means comissioning scriptin work from the Guild, and we should budget it :)
Aliasi Stonebender: would depend on how busy the person the Guild picks is.
Flyingroc Chung: depends a whole lot on who is implementing it, and how much time he has to devote on it
Kendra Bancroft: I don't know --and if the Guild treasurer does not wish the responsability of it --I suppose I could take responsability --though my knowledge of accounting is less than my knowledge of scripting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, yes, Aliasi. However, we could have a rough estimate in terms of how many hours of labour for that?
Pendari Lorentz: I'm no scriptor.. but I bet Satch could do it.. yes.. we woud need a proposal from the guild on the scripting costs so that we can approve the budget
Sudane Erato: well... its not a matter of accounting
Sudane Erato: its rather a matter of a complex spreadsheet kind of thing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Pendari Lorentz: that's right! I always forget Aliasi is a great scriptor as well!
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm a scripter, but I dabble, I could probably do this, it's just automation, but it's a larger task than I've done before.
Aliasi Stonebender: *just mathmatics
Flyingroc Chung: scripting projects have really highly variable time schedule
Flyingroc Chung: s
Pendari Lorentz: welcome Bond =) click the penguin for an agenda =)
Flyingroc Chung: I mean, they are really difficult to estimate, especially if you do it on your free time
Bond Harrington: sry about not introducing myself earlier
Pendari Lorentz: alright.. how about the RA asks the guild to come up with a budget for this script based on what you think it may be worth (time, use, etc) .. and we can go from there?
Aliasi Stonebender: indeed. still, the basics are easy enough: deposit X linden, get Y each month until the bond is called and you get X back; the complexities are suing th eprinciple as part of your landuse fee and security and such.
Sudane Erato: well the transfer to the landuse fee could be a data export to the treasurer
Sudane Erato: even a simple list
Flyingroc Chung: also, it looks like you might need an external place to store information. Like, perhaps, the nburg web host
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Seldon Metropolitan: back and caught up
Flyingroc Chung: otherwise, you need to budget the cost of maintaining the software as well
Pendari Lorentz: question.. can this process be automated?
Kendra Bancroft: This is where it pisses e off that Ulrika is leaving --she could do this in her sleep
Aliasi Stonebender: oh, it CAN, pend, that's not the the issue.
Flyingroc Chung: I do not see any technical barrier, only time and effort of a good scripter is needed
Pendari Lorentz: the hows are a guild matter, just a yes or no concerns the RA =)
Aliasi Stonebender: the question is how much of a hassle it is to automate. :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Pendari Lorentz: haha.. I can understand that =)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, even I have done more complex stuff... :) (and sometimes it even does work!!) lol
Sudane Erato: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'm not volunteering — sorry about that, I can't find the required "spare time" for that right now.
Aliasi Stonebender: but in that sense, yes, I can confidently state the problem is solvable. interfacing it to the outside world is the touch part
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless you wish it for 2007 :)
Kendra Bancroft: I just make teh pretty
Pendari Lorentz: I would like to then call the action for this proposal: Yes bill proposal passed with condition the process can be automated. Guild will submit a definite yes or no answer and a budget by next RA meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Sudane Erato: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds good.
Flyingroc Chung: Also, because this deals with real oney, I think you'd need to do some extensive testing before rolling it out
Pendari Lorentz: indeed
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Recommendation to the Guild noted :)
Pendari Lorentz: Alright.. before the next two agenda items.. I have a question and statement in regards to them
Kendra Bancroft: agreed --we will test this with Flyingroc's money
Seldon Metropolitan: lol
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Flyingroc Chung: I'm a poor grad student, you might have o take my ramen budget
Pendari Lorentz: These two items .. the Notary and Bank were submitted to me by Eugene to be on today's agenda. I saw the forum discussions and included them. However, I am not certain if these are being proposed as Needed Builds that will need a budget approval by the
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I'm willing to do some testing, no problem *there*. I'm always losing 0.01 US$ in tests with PayPal and things, hehe
Pendari Lorentz: RA.. or if they are just "we want to do this and we are doing it" sort of builds.. =)
Kendra Bancroft: let's see at 33 cents per Ramen package that works out to about 10 lindens
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Pendari Lorentz: what do you think Kendra?
Pendari Lorentz: are these ideas yet an issue for the RA?
Kendra Bancroft: I agreewith the proposal --but I might have trouble reaching the deadline of next week
Sudane Erato: there are 2 separate proposals right?
Sudane Erato: that you are refering to?
Pendari Lorentz: yes.. there are 2..
Kendra Bancroft: yes
Sudane Erato: they seem pretty distinctly different
Pendari Lorentz: if these are being proposed as Needed City Builds.. the RA needs to first vote if we think they are and therefore will receive payment from the city
Pendari Lorentz: if they are just pet projects, we don't have to be involved at all
Sudane Erato: well.. the Notary is not a build at all, is it?
Aliasi Stonebender: It does require money, though, so the question is valid.
Sudane Erato: I see
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was reading the notecard, and no, there is really no "need" for a building
Kendra Bancroft: But as thebudgetary issues require me to find out charges for services --I "might" hve trouble obtainng an answer --the scripting for this is out of my field
Pendari Lorentz: Not really.. it seems the Notary could easily be added to the new Rathaus
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Pen :)
Sudane Erato: sure
Pendari Lorentz: hehe.. I hear you Kendra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's more an issue of paying Zarf a L$ 1000, and that's all :)
Kendra Bancroft: I have already planned for a NBotary office in the Rathaus design
Sudane Erato: yes... thats the issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent, Kendra!
Sudane Erato: is the service needed at this time?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Consider the costs.
Aliasi Stonebender: although in principle it doesn't seem too bad. our deeds don't have to rely on SL permissions and you can roll the fee into the land price.
Sudane Erato: the bank is another interesting issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: From what I understood, Zarf is only charging you L$ 1000 to use his system.
Pendari Lorentz: Based on what I read in the forums.. it seems the RA already likes the idea of both .. but do we feel they deserve payment by the city for implementation.. Lets take the first one first.. The Notary
Pendari Lorentz: RA?
Kendra Bancroft: I don't care if you store dustmaps in there --butr the office space wiill be available
Flyingroc Chung: there is also a charge per document that you notarize, right?
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I know how the LL permission system sucks, so I'm definitely in favour of spending the extra L$ 1000 :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How much is that charge??
Aliasi Stonebender: currently Zarf charges L$100 a document, with L$50 for each signature over two.
Pendari Lorentz: I would vote yes this is something the city could need.. not just for ourselves, but I think it could bring business to the city from outside as well
Aliasi Stonebender: it's noted he might raise it to L$200 / L$75 addl sig.
Kendra Bancroft: so we just charge moneys to nw tenants as "legal" fees
Sudane Erato: what about all the old ddeeds?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Pendari Lorentz: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not *too* expensive considering the alternatives.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Kendra.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps we could give "Old" tenants a choice?
Pendari Lorentz: I would hate to charge citizens for a service they would not use.. that would be much like taxing don't you think?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm well
Sudane Erato: :)
Aliasi Stonebender: well pend, the point is they WOULD be using it.
Aliasi Stonebender: you'd HAVE to use ti to get a land deed. :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Either the RA says that "all deeds HAVE to be extra-strongly-cryptographically-signed".... and we include the fee for that...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or you wuld give them a choice
Pendari Lorentz: ahhh! ok.. then yes.. what about the old deeds? Gwyn you suggest giving the old tenats a choice?
Kendra Bancroft: The city should bite the bullket on the legal fees for the citizens we now have
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can use a quick & dirty method, or a safe one: your choice.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Pen.
Seldon Metropolitan: I for one would take the notarized version for both the security and for support of the technology
Pendari Lorentz: That I could think as a good idea too Kendra.. that would be a part of our budget then.. if we think we could afford that
Aliasi Stonebender: I don't know, I'd hate to have people opt for quick&dirty and have it bite us all.
Kendra Bancroft: w'ere talking 20 deeds atr 100 per
Sudane Erato: yes
Kendra Bancroft: That's not a lot of money for the city to convert
Flyingroc Chung: Does zarf have to be present for people to notarize something?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you — the permission system is not *that* bad, I've tried repeatedly to hack the SL client ;)
Aliasi Stonebender: No, he just installs the desk.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's good to know, Aliasi.
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, Gwyn, after the god-mode hack awhile back, someone just might be a better hacker than you. :P
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They might.
Sudane Erato: but remember... the trasurer must keep off-site records
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As everything related to security... it's a trade-off, always.
Aliasi Stonebender: No slur on your ability, just some people are /really/ determined.

Pendari Lorentz: Alright RA.. would you approve this as a Needed City "service/build" and accept the proposal of the city paying for the Notary costs of the current citizens.. New Citizen's will have the cost included at their land deed sale?
Sudane Erato: the deeds are not the only record
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I know, Aliasi — and the system is not *that* good, you know.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree on that, Pen.
Flyingroc Chung: Would it be reasonable for the city to ask zarf for a commission on he notary service?
Pendari Lorentz: I think the deeds being notarized would be the only thing the city would pay for on past citizens.. other documents citizens past or future would have to pay for themselves
Flyingroc Chung: I guess like a tax for the notary
Flyingroc Chung: I guess like a tax for the notary
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, basically, the alternative is to develop our own system, but that is way higher (in terms of costs) than paying a fee for Zarf's system
Kendra Bancroft: I think it would be reasonable --unlessarf becomes a citizen
Pendari Lorentz: hehe.. good point Kendra
Seldon Metropolitan: agreed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm that would be an idea, Kendra :)
Pendari Lorentz: Sudane.. what do you think about what I just asked the RA?
Sudane Erato: about us dooing it?
Sudane Erato: or about implementing his system?
Pendari Lorentz: You: Alright RA.. would you approve this as a Needed City "service/build" and accept the proposal of the city paying for the Notary costs of the current citizens.. New Citizen's will have the cost included at their land deed sale?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: About the city paying for the costs of the old deeds
Sudane Erato: I will agree reluctantly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops sorry for repeating that, Pen :)
Pendari Lorentz: no worries Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why "reluctantly"? Because of the costs?
Sudane Erato: i'm not totally convinced it s needed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
Pendari Lorentz: I'm thinking future here
Sudane Erato: and thats perhaps a good reason
<b>Sudane Erato</b>Gwyneth Llewelyn listens to Sudane[/color]
Pendari Lorentz: as Neualt grows and we expand.. we will not always be the small family we are now
Sudane Erato: thats why I will agree
Sudane Erato: but there reamins the hesiatation
Pendari Lorentz: you just think it is not needed at this time?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, let me put this into another way. How long would it take to develop something similar?
Sudane Erato: yes
Pendari Lorentz: anyone can waq
Sudane Erato: we have in place a more basic system
Pendari Lorentz: err, walk into a local bank and become a notary
Sudane Erato: in the future... this may be necessary
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can say from my experience that it would take, uh, about 4 Gwyn-hours — 2 to read manuals, two to develop. Of course, in my personal case, that means about, uh, 4-48 months until I get the time, lol
Pendari Lorentz: as for the scripting.. I have no idea how to merge those two worlds
Sudane Erato: so... perhaps its just a matter of when
Sudane Erato: hehe gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Kendra Bancroft: are we obliged to keep the service in perpetuity? If it doesn't work it --we are free to go bck to our current system
Pendari Lorentz: hehe
Kendra Bancroft: we are risking only some 3K
Sudane Erato: true
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or to a different one. That is a good point. Yes.
Pendari Lorentz: true... but we also have other builds the Guild is working on that we still have to pay for.. hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Pendari Lorentz: I agree.. 3k doesn't seem like a huge risk
Flyingroc Chung: well, if we do all our deeds with the current system, we might get locked-in to it by virtue of the cost of converting again to some other system.
Kendra Bancroft: 3K isn't gonna make a dent --and you are only paying for the Rathaus at this point
Sudane Erato: well... roc, we'll still have the existing deeds
Pendari Lorentz: ok.. could this service make more people trust the process better, and therefore bring us more citizens?
Seldon Metropolitan: yes
Sudane Erato: we wouldn't have to back out
Kendra Bancroft: The schloss is paid for --and the guild is footing the bill on the Moca
Pendari Lorentz: if so.. the city could make that money back with just a few new sold deeds correct?
Aliasi Stonebender: it seems so to me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, that's assuming Zarf's reputation is flawless ;)
Sudane Erato: :)
Seldon Metropolitan: I did quite a bit of checking up on him
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good :)
Seldon Metropolitan: when the service was first announced
Pendari Lorentz: alright .. RA.. any objections to voting approval or not right now?
Kendra Bancroft: Neualtenburg must be at the vanguard!
Sudane Erato: i agree
Pendari Lorentz: I agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, I also agree. I still think it would take us an endless time to develop something similar.
Kendra Bancroft: And I need to make my tits bigger
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL!
Pendari Lorentz: 3 RA votes approve.. Action item for this proposal: You: Alright RA.. would you approve this as a Needed City "service/build" and accept the proposal of the city paying for the Notary costs of the current citizens.. New Citizen's will have the cost inclu
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, the Bank now? :)
Sudane Erato: yes Pen
Pendari Lorentz: err.. .haha.. you get the idea of the action :-p
Pendari Lorentz: *blush*
Pendari Lorentz: Ok. Bank.. same premise.. Agenda item 3.. RA: is this a needed city build? thoughts?
Sudane Erato: well. I feel that the bank is a good proposal.... but
Kendra Bancroft: It's a simple matter of building an ATM like machine
Sudane Erato: it needs to be modular
Sudane Erato: we need a simple system now
Sudane Erato: for people to have land fee accounts
Sudane Erato: then perhaps in time
Sudane Erato: we can add other services
Sudane Erato: to exapnd to a fiull fledged bank
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, an dunlike the notary, the principles of SL ATM machines are well known. ;)
Kendra Bancroft: build is minimal --we stick a new ATM in the bank
Sudane Erato: well.. again its scrpting
Bond Harrington: This would be in addition to the normal "financial" building we have now. Kendra's right, it would just be the matter of adding an ATM
Pendari Lorentz: I like the idea of a bank.. I think it can be a real asset to the city.. so I would vote yes for it being a needed build.. of course the next step if it were approved, would be to get the proposal from the Guild on what it would take and cost the city
Bond Harrington: BTW, do we still have the GOM machine there?
Sudane Erato: I agree pen
Seldon Metropolitan: I think this would be a great asset to the city
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me ask you something... the bank is mostly a web site, not really a building, right?
Kendra Bancroft: e have a bank build already --if you like I can work up a budget for sprucing it up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. the building is just the "fun" part of it.
Sudane Erato: well. now,, there is no bank
Pendari Lorentz: other than the build of the atm type machine Gwyn
Seldon Metropolitan: especially if some of the current account information was availiable from it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the ATM is irrelevant.
Pendari Lorentz: which would be needed as a thing to talk to the website
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. it's "eye candy" I mean.
Flyingroc Chung: well, it would most likely be mostly a database
Sudane Erato: the website only has "display" information
Pendari Lorentz: I wouldn't think it would just be eye candy..
Sudane Erato: and a button for paypal
Sudane Erato: all the rest is manual
Flyingroc Chung: and scripts that would interact with the database
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But what database?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does that exist?
Sudane Erato: no
Pendari Lorentz: I was thinking it would work like the shop atms and the gom type atms.. something that talked between our world and the real one
Sudane Erato: it is manual now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I read things like: "The bank would simply provide accounts for all citizens that the city could deposit or withdraw money from."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, hmm...
Sudane Erato: again... the proposal is a bit too complex to start
Flyingroc Chung: yup, that means some sort of external database. Most web hosts will provise MySQL DB access.
Pendari Lorentz: in other words.. I thought the atm would 100% be needed for this to work
Sudane Erato: some in world interface is needed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the important bit is not the ATM, Pen — is the whole application server :P
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Pendari Lorentz: Gwyn just made me drool my drink in confusion
Pendari Lorentz: *blush*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry lol
Sudane Erato: hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes... if nothing else, Hank Ramos has an open source one you can base future work on. :P
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not my intention :)
Aliasi Stonebender: (ATM-wise)
Kendra Bancroft: true --are there not opensource ATMs available now scriptwise?
Flyingroc Chung: I've developed a similar application for my land business, it takes about a week or so of scripting to get some basic functionality done. (but I'm not volunteering, sry, too much other stuff)
Pendari Lorentz: oh yes! I remember finding that and posting it in the Neualt forums Aliasi, I had no idea what it was for though.. haha
Aliasi Stonebender: although they don't talk outside of Sl - all of that is handled through character strings.
Flyingroc Chung: at least for L$ based accounts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, doing XML-RPC thingies to talk to web-based servers is my personal hobby... it was launched in June 2004 in SL, and my first thingy worked in September (I just joined in the end of July, lol)
Flyingroc Chung: paypal accounts would be more complex
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah
Kendra Bancroft: I could build the actual ATM (not script) in about 10 minutes --so the build is not theissue
Aliasi Stonebender: ah, so, unlike, say, me, you know WTF to do. :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quoting Kendra, "I do those during my sleep"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, I simply don't have time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But i can give a rough estimate on how long it takes.
Kendra Bancroft: Maybe we can persuade Ulrika to knowck one out?
Kendra Bancroft: It wouldn't be much different than her vendor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since she *has* 99% of the code already.
Pendari Lorentz: Ok. RA Members.. it sounds like we have some doubts on what we really want to ask the guild to present to us for this proposal.. shall we take our 7 day voting period? Or are you ready to vote now to get a drafted main proposal from the guild?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have perhaps 60% of it, but I volunteer that gladly
Pendari Lorentz: I'm fine with voting now to get a proposal from the guild that is more solid
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure.
Sudane Erato: I suggest we disuss this for the 7 day period
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree as well
Sudane Erato: oh
Sudane Erato: well... if you wish
Pendari Lorentz: hehe.. I tricked you didn't I Sudane...
Sudane Erato: hehe
Pendari Lorentz: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and i would also like to suggest to consider outsourcing it to Ulrika, as said, she has most of the code ready.
Pendari Lorentz: /nod
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, at elast I think she does, but I can forward her my stuff.
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, it'd be unusual for the Guild to outsource stuff,. but I don't think there's actually anything /forbidding/ that, Kendra?
Sudane Erato: it seems reasonable that the Guild could employ Ulrika, no matter what her relationship to NBurg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I even have some things that tie into her name2key database as well, hehe
Kendra Bancroft: technically --until she leaves --she's still a Guild member
Pendari Lorentz: Sudane, since this is nothing final.. would you be comfortable with an action vote today that just requested a more formal draft from the Guild on what this proposal would involve?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well — my only suggestion is because I trust Ulrika with that :)
Flyingroc Chung: actually, I think ulrika kinda volunteered already
Sudane Erato: yes, thats fine :)
Flyingroc Chung: Ulrika Zugzwang 10-13-2005 09:39 PM I can have most of the work done, as it will have to be integrated into the website and is fairly similar to the vendor code I've already done.
Pendari Lorentz: my wording was off earlier.. I apologize *blush*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, but that was before her leaving :P
Flyingroc Chung: oh yea
Pendari Lorentz: Gwyneth.. would you agree the same?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :(
Aliasi Stonebender: but she hasn't formally left, yet.
Kendra Bancroft: She hasn't left yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good to hear that, Kendra :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, pen — I agree we have the 7-day voting period
Pendari Lorentz: LOL
Kendra Bancroft: ownership of her Schloss land is still her's
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although I say "yes" on the bank on general principles.
Pendari Lorentz: Gwyneth, since this is nothing final.. would you be comfortable with an action vote today that just requested a more formal draft from the Guild on what this proposal would involve?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just the specific issues that make we wonder :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh sorry, Pen — yes, of course :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with that :)
Sudane Erato: and yes from me
Kendra Bancroft: I would request that the RA e-mail me a formal request of what I'm supoosed to provide
Pendari Lorentz: yes from me as well. Action for agenda item 3: RA requests a more formal draft from the Guild on what this proposal would involve
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe :)
Pendari Lorentz: no problem Kendra =)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree to Kendra's request :)
Pendari Lorentz: hehe
Kendra Bancroft: cos --ya know --I'm blonde

Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'd like to add on the agenda that I agree on general principles.
Pendari Lorentz: lol Kendra
Sudane Erato: I certainly agree on general principles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You too, kendra? <winks>
Pendari Lorentz: Agenda item 4: 4. Proposal for Constitutional Amendment to Article VI, Section 2
Pendari Lorentz: RA thoughts on this proposal?
Kendra Bancroft: and yes te carpet textures match the drape texrtures
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just for the record, who suggested the amendment?
Pendari Lorentz: lol Kendra
Aliasi Stonebender: I meant to submit this through Satchmo, but t'was me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and I remind you that we sadly lack a 2/3 majority on that
Aliasi Stonebender: You may recall the forum discussion.
Pendari Lorentz: Aliasi Stonebender submitted this amendment proposal
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, I didn't know that until now.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Aliasi, thanks, as said, it's just for the record :)
Sudane Erato: I don't think the departure part is enforceable
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I certainly agree.
Aliasi Stonebender: the old 7-day one wasn't enforceable either.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Sudane Erato: no exactly
Flyingroc Chung: doesnt this conflict with the "no departure ultimatum" part of the consitution?
Sudane Erato: so having any one is not a good idea
Pendari Lorentz: Yes.. we can talk a bit about it... but we cannot get a full vote on this today unfortunatly.. however we can take it to the 7 day vote and get Satch and Eugene's votes taht way
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Pen
Kendra Bancroft: She's giving notice and willing to work out a transition strategy --it's not really an ulktimatum
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And hmm, Flyingroc... actually, that should be the SC's job to comment on that
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, I don't care so much about this particular phrase, it's just if it doesn't apply, it shouldn't be there in /some/ form.
Sudane Erato: clint, could you take it outside?:)
Flyingroc Chung: just asking
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clint... you're a bit out of order with that giant zebra, LOL
Clint Turner: sorry guys
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Clint Turner: can i be let out
Pendari Lorentz: hehe.. there are a lot of little things like that I think could use modifying int he constitution.. Since I live by that darn thing, I have red all over my copy with notes *blush*
Clint Turner: thx :D
Clint Turner: take care all gotta go
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Pen :)
Kendra Bancroft: As departures go --Ulrika is being more than resonable to create a smooth transition
Pendari Lorentz: oh my! haha.. take care Clint.. have fun =)
Pendari Lorentz: *wave*
Kendra Bancroft: Though if I had my way --I'd place her in the stocks and not let her leave
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, in any case, this wouldn't have retroactive enforcement, so no problem on that.
Sudane Erato: but having anything that s not enforceable... is that a good idea?
Aliasi Stonebender: it's more a hopeful statement than anything else - after all, the only real punishment the city has for /any/ infraction is exile, basically.
Pendari Lorentz: how is it not enforcable?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Aliasi said, lol
Sudane Erato: I have had 3 citizens now...
Sudane Erato: simply leave
Aliasi Stonebender: I leave. What the hell do YOU intend to do about it, Pendari? (theoretical question)
Pendari Lorentz: oh.. I see
Sudane Erato: 4 actually
Pendari Lorentz: lol Aliasi
Pendari Lorentz: I'll stalk you of course :-p
Sudane Erato: the 4th has disappeared
Pendari Lorentz: *wink*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-(
Aliasi Stonebender: but what this DOES do
Sudane Erato: what could be done?
Aliasi Stonebender: is if someone doesn't give notice, we at least have grounds to simply reclaim the land... giving notice means they could sell their deed, after all.
Pendari Lorentz: ack!! emergencey afk.. super fast brb!!
Flyingroc Chung: does this mean if someone leave, his or her land will have to be kept empty for 30 days?
Sudane Erato: but thats the whole point
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing really, except to accept our scorn until the end of time :)
Sudane Erato: these are people who alreday are abandoning their land
Kendra Bancroft: shun
Kendra Bancroft: we shun them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We post them on the Neualtenburg's Distrust List :)
Aliasi Stonebender: but then we have a firm "legal" standing to claim it... it's already in the ToS, so it's not /strictly/ needed in the constitution, but after the forum talk I figured I'd see how a version would fly.
Sudane Erato: the only land we have to keep empty would be people who have not declared their intention to leave
Sudane Erato: like Fedihlim
Sudane Erato: who has disappeared
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
<b>Gwyneth Llewelyn</b>Seldon Metropolitan vanishes[/color]
Sudane Erato: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Seldon :)
Aliasi Stonebender: I see no Aliasi here.
Kendra Bancroft: we burn their effigys in townsqquare and get Madame Maracas to put a hex on them?
Seldon Metropolitan: we really need a way to force avatars into stocks witha majority vote
Flyingroc Chung: ok, here's a hypothetical, person A says he leaves, and his land is sold to person B. Person A then decides to stay. Will he be able to claim his land back?
Bond Harrington: Do we need to put in a clause about renouncing citizenship
Sudane Erato: or into the guillitoune
Bond Harrington: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Sudane Erato: that might be better
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All confusing matters.
Sudane Erato: welll.... let us refer it to discussion for 7 days
Aliasi Stonebender: see, it's a topic we do need to hammer out.
Kendra Bancroft: we take away their chickenhat
Sudane Erato: true Aliasi
Seldon Metropolitan: lol
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, all future chickenhats need secret backdoors to auto-delete.
Pendari Lorentz: back.. so sorry
Seldon Metropolitan: put some secret coding in the chicken hat thats activated if you skip out
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Pen :D
Kendra Bancroft: No Chickenhat for YOU!
Pendari Lorentz: thank you.. I was thinking while afk and everything I thought of I countered.. haha.. so yes.. the 7 days is needed anyway, so lets take it
Sudane Erato: yes
Pendari Lorentz: Action for Agenda item 4: referred to 7 day vote due to amendment changings needing unanimous RA approval and only 3 are in attendance
Gwyneth Llewelyn: unanimous?
Sudane Erato: agreed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Pendari Lorentz: did I spell it wrong?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I thought a 2/3 majority would be enough!
Pendari Lorentz: hmm.. or am I wrong in the oh yes.. Gwyn is right
Pendari Lorentz: I'll note that correction in the action summary.. sorry!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe no need to apologise, Pen, i was just wondering if I didn't remember that bit correctly
Pendari Lorentz: Agenda item 5. Confirmation Hearing for New SC Member - Aliasi Stonebender
Pendari Lorentz: you did Gwyn.. I was in la la land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye on that ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, "aye on the vote of confidenceon Aliasi"
Pendari Lorentz: ok.. there has never been a confirmation hearing before
Pendari Lorentz: hehe
Sudane Erato: I suggest we approve Alliasi by aclamation!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Sudane Erato: yea!
Gwyneth Llewelyn *howls*
Pendari Lorentz: I'm assuming this is the chance the RA gets to ask any questions it may have?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Kendra Bancroft: The Guild has no objection
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, pend.
Pendari Lorentz: I may have the only question... hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have some interesting news to share...
Kendra Bancroft: I need to log off , gang
Kendra Bancroft: Ciao!
Sudane Erato: bye :)
Pendari Lorentz: Aliasi.. when I first met you down in the valley, we talked a bit about Neualt... at the time you stated you had no interest in the Government and wanted to do your own thing. Now that you are up for an SC position.. has your wanting to participate in
Bond Harrington: later Kendra
Pendari Lorentz: the government changed enough that you feel you could be an asset in this role (as you are already an incredible asset otherwise!! ) =)
Aliasi Stonebender: That's a good question, and one I've thought about myself. On the one, my opinion hasn't actually changed; I don't have any wish to seek out a position. However:
Aliasi Stonebender: on this, Ulrika came to me and asked, and I stated quite simply - I'm not opposed. And given I've made a commitment to Nburg, if I'm /asked/, that's different.
Sudane Erato: bravo
Pendari Lorentz: =)
Pendari Lorentz: That's good enough for me! =)
Bond Harrington: That's good, because you might be getting her job
Sudane Erato: hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: The horror.
Pendari Lorentz: I think that is the plan Bond.. haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We *may* not have an option, actually, Aliasi.... but that's an issue for the SC.
Aliasi Stonebender: (Although it would make my occasional drop-ins on Prokofy's "THAT DAMMED PROK" discussion/rants that much more interesting!)
Pendari Lorentz: alright.. I have no objections.. and I look forward to having someone new in the SC.. yay for Aliasi! =)
Pendari Lorentz: lol Aliasi
Seldon Metropolitan: :D
Sudane Erato: :)
Pendari Lorentz: if no objections then... I will call this meeting adjourned =)
Sudane Erato: great
Pendari Lorentz: Thank you everyone for coming! Logs will be posted by Tuesday at the latest! =)

The meeting closed at 14:29 Linden time.

Formatted and colorized with transcript.

1. Proposal Bill: Neualtenburg Bonds 2
Action for Agenda item 1: 3 RA votes approve this bill with the RA's condition is that the process must become an automated one. Guild will submit a definite yes or no answer and a scripting budget by next RA meeting.


2. Proposal - Needed Builds for Neualtenburg - Neualtenburg Notary
Action for Agenda item 2: 3 RA votes approve this as a Needed City "service/build" and accept the proposal of the city paying for the Notary costs of the current citizens for their deeds. New Citizen's will have the cost included at their land deed sale.


3. Proposal - Needed Builds for Neualtenburg - Neualtenburg Bank
Action for agenda item 3: RA requests a more formal draft from the Guild on what this proposal would involve.


4. Proposal for Constitutional Amendment to Article VI, Section 2
Action for Agenda item 4: referred to 7 day vote due to amendment changings needing 2/3 majority RA approval and only 3 are in attendance.


5. Confirmation Hearing for New SC Member - Aliasi Stonebender
Action for Agenda item 5: No objections from the RA and a hearty welcome to Aliasi Stonebender as an SC member!