Federal Trade Commission

This is exactly what legendcityonline .com has done to me. Because I complained about them buying out centralgrid and wiping out everything to build their own mainland, I was prevented from posting anymore on their forum (deleting my requests for access to 3 of my sims), banned from using the land I bought and paid tier on for 8 mos, and refusing to give me any info on who and where I can serve legal papers.

So whatever you decide on doing, remember that LL will most likely do the same to you. As in the words of LaLa Legend (Grid Diva), I own it and I will do whatever I want.

It comes under the Bait and Switch clause. If I buy a dozen eggs and later discover that the the store changed their definition to only have 8 in the box, that's iffy at best.

Nope. I wouldn't be fine with it. I would then have to decide if owning a private island was still affordable for me or not and act accordingly. Who knows where prices will go once class 6 sims are available.

Felix if we did not have business-related laws prohibiting this, then most companies would engage in this behavior and consumers would be ripped off daily.

It is good that we explore this behavior by LL in a court of law. Then the precedent is set and we will not continue to be at the mercy of the continually morphing TOS. A one-sided TOS is not the document needed when people are spending thousands of dollars a year.

but class 6 sims what ever they are, would be a better product, for which you expect to pay extra. Not a reduced product as in Homesteads and a huge increase in price.

BTW when I logged in last there is a survey something like "Has your SL experience improved recently" I indicated NO, citing how could my experience in SL be improved when they are taking my home away by raising prices by 67%. I hope those of you that feel likewise give the same response.

I'm not sure it will cost more, an entry level PC (just using entry level as an example) today is more powerful than they were three years ago but the cost hasn't generally increased.

well we for sure leard that we cant trust Linden Lab on tier pricing

Is what Linden Labs has done with OS illegal? Just because they have big company lawyers does not mean they have not done something that courts may deem unethical or actionable in if not criminal court than in civil court. I think there is plenty of actionable cause for a civil case, if not an outright criminal one. Say Linden Labs was a land lord that offered a buy in to their apartment building, if you pay a non refundable deposit of 1500 dollars, you get a single bed room apartment for a rent of 500 a month, that includes water, trash, and electricity.

Then, a few months down the line you are told rent is now 700 a month, and the included services of trash and water and electricity are now not included. Then you are told, well you can remain at a 500 a month rent, but your apartment is going to be cut into quarters and you only get one quarter of that for your 500, and you get no water or electricity. Those who pay 700 still keep their full amount of room but are also without water and electricity.

I think that would be a class action case waiting to be taken to court.

Throw in the fact that many of the persons duped/defrauded are fixed income, non profit, etc. Even if nothing goes to court, the dubious nature of such actions will cost LL something in ethical repute, and make ANYONE seriously reconsider any type of purchase or investment into LL. LL is tarnished by their actions, and if the letter of the law is not broken, then most certainly they have broken trust and faith with their shameful scamming of many good and innocent people.

Bliss

Well, on the plus side I have a good friend who will be working for the Obama administration in the Justice Department as a lawyer working consumer fraud and consumer products safety cases in the Office of Consumer Litigation, but on the down side, he's not starting until October 2009. They start the hiring process early I'm told and I'm expecting a call from the FBI to verify his background so he can start the gig. I should pick his brain and see what he thinks about this, if he thinks there is anything to your position that this is worthy of a consumer protection or fraud. I'm not a lawyer, I'm just a guitar player.

That all said, I turned my OS sims in and I walked away from them. I ain't got a fight in me right now, it was easier to vote with my wallet and keep the $300 a month right now. Its not worth it to me right now and I could use the extra $3600.00 a year by turning them in, I sure wasn't going to put up with the increase in fees, the prim reductions and the restrictions on scripts and avatars in "my" land.

Besides, I'm torn on the subject. On the one hand, I'm tweaked about the policy change, the way LL pitted resident against resident with accusations, and the feeling that I've been duped, plus accused of abusing something when I followed the rules. On the other hand, I LOVE Second Life, and am an evangelist for the whole virtual world concept as a platform for other musicians to use to perform for a world-wide audience in a new cutting edge way.

Bummer.

I just had to get my two cents in here, though I am sure I will be shouted down and it won't affect a thing. Whatever. I do have two points, however.

The problem with most of your arguments re: breach of contract, fraud, and the inevitable analogies about eggs and Big Macs is that you never bought anything in the first place. You did not buy a sim. You do not own it. You are simply renting it. The $250 setup fee is just that... a setup fee to ready the "rental property" (in this case a sim) for your use, to name it, terraform it, and place it on the grid where you request it to be. It is not a concrete item that you purchased... they did not "sell" you anything.

Also... for the poster who suggested the Better Business Bureau, you do realize that the BBB is a for profit private company, not a government agency, right? They have absolutely no power over controlling the practices of other companies... all they are is a repository for people to file complaints (and on the rare occasion give accolades) to assist in their rating of a company's trustworthiness. They don't actually have any legal power.
http://us.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx?site=113&id=29d8847a-9da3-44c6-9ffc-7d8dd20877b4#faq14

Honestly, the only thing you can do is vote with your pocketbook if you are offended by it. Or, protest loudly... organize a boycott, make a big stink, start a grassroots movement, get organized, and give LL a bad name. How effective is that? Look at how these movements got everyone to switch from Internet Explorer to Firefox, to switch from Windows to Linux, to not shop at Wal-Mart anymore... yup, these boycotts put Wal-Mart and Microsoft right out of business. </sarcasm> OK, couldn't resist that one.

Oh, and by the way... one more thing - any yahoo can post something on Wikipedia. I trust that as a source about as much as I trust my 10 year old son on stock advice. If you are going to quote a source, you can do waaaaayyyy better than Wikipedia. The BBB link I posted above is an example of a credible source.

OK, rant off. The time I spent posting this is 5 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

They sold a service. Now I'll hold my hands up here and say I find the idea of legal action absurd at this point in time and damaging to the platform as a whole, I won't be backing any legal action.

Where Linden Lab are walking on very rocky legal ground is on their private region pricing page which even today says that the maintenance fee is USD$75. Linden Lab have told existing users this isn't the case, new users aren't seeing the price rise mentioned on that page, last time I checked it wasn't mentioned in the land store either.

Now as Linden Lab have plans to raise the maintenance fee, selling someone a service as USD$75, when you know they'll be paying USD$95 (and we're very close to that point now) is without a doubt misleading advertising. Some may even argue that not mentioning the pricing change now is misleading advertising. This is just very sloppy from Linden Lab, there really are no excuses for them not to have this information on their pricing page.

Let's see...would that be the lawyers who advised them that gambling in Second Life is legal prompting them to publish an infamous blog which conveniently disappeared later assuring all owners of casinos that their operations were ok? Or perhaps it would be the lawyers that advised them that it was legally questionable to allow gambling in SL and to ban it only to later tell them that slot machines are okay as long as they are not called slot machines if they use rhetoric about skill being involved nothwithstanding that several games of skill are explicitly banned under the same policy? Or maybe it was the lawyers that advised them its TOS would prevail in the courts against Bragg. The same lawyers that charged them over a hundred thousand dollars to defend the case only to cave in and settle with Bragg.That was funny if it was intentional. Otherwise it's ironic.

when people come to their senses about virtual land they will realize it only exists when your in SL..... It's not real... you pay for the concept of owning land, nothing more. And well the prices are astronomical for what you actually get..... Your setup fees you pay so you can pay tier. Does a island sim actually cost 750$ more than a OS sim for setup? I seriously doubt it. Until people realize that LL is simply in the business of convincing people they need virtual land they can set the price at any amt. there is no land, just the concept of land.

You mean something like this?

What are Openspaces and what do they cost?
Please refer to Openspace FAQ for changes effective January 1, 2009.

No, I don't mean something like that. I mean on the pricing page where they advertise the prices of openspaces.

http://secondlife.com/land/privatepricing.php

That page. That page should clearly state the new pricing structure.

Anyone buying an OS owns a full sim and it's reasonable to assume that having spent $1000 already they would have the sense to read a bit more about their considered next purchase then just the price list.

If someone is going to hand over a few hundred dollars then it would seem wise that they take the suggestion "For more information, check out our Information on Openspaces knowledge base article......For more information on region billing and payment, check out the Knowledge Base articles listed on the right."

actually this is really good

The pricing information shouldn't be buried away on an FAQ, that's not how it works, that's not how consumer bodies feel it should work and that's not how governments around the world feel it should work either. The price should be displayed clearly where the price is advertised. In this case people going to the pricing page are not getting the information they should. That is misleading advertising.

Agreed. Not just on this issue, but overall, LL has an annoying habit of making essential information hard to find. You shouldn't have to wade through the Site or worse go Wiki hunting for most of this stuff. I don't know which part of the TAO says people, especially new uninitiated customers have to jump through hoops to find out about the product, but it should be changed.

thanks... just being the voice of reason and sanity, using valid research and sources. Nice to hear something in response besides the crickets. I seem to have a knack for shutting down arguments when I post things like this. Notice how quiet it got?

It got so quiet because when you actually used logic to counter their OMG the sky is falling poor us mentality I'm guessing at least a few already swollen heads exploded from the shock.

Although I pointed out they sold a service and you never responded

Ciaran, rented is more accurate than sold. The reasons why have been posted and rehashed by several people above but there's a big distinction in this case wouldn't you agree?

Sorry... I didn't think this was a response to my points. My mistake.

To clarify my point... they are in fact selling two services... (1) the initial setup, renaming, placing on the grid, initial terraforming, etc for a one time fee of $250, and (2) an ongoing availability service for $75/month. What I was saying is that once the initial setup is done (renaming, etc per my original post) LL has delivered the first part of the agreed-upon service. That $250 has been spent, and what you have to show for it is the work they did to get your sim running. Now, I'm not going to argue the point of whether that is worth $250 or not... the market dictates that, not the actual labor time LL expends.


On this, you will get no argument from me. Sloppy at best, misleading and fraudulent at worst... I agree. However, this issue would only apply for someone agreeing to "buy" an OS after the announcement was made that the price would be increasing. It has no bearing on any "purchases" made before that date.

And no, I am not an attorney... just another "landowner" like the rest of you. While I don't necessarily agree with LL's actions (of course I don't!) I also feel that there isn't much room for legal recourse here.

Mostly agreed, the only questionable area would be with LL admitting they looked into the issue in August and September. I'm no attorney either but continuing to sell a problematic product probably breaches some consumer law, but good luck to anyone proving that in this case. What I'm trying to say is if you knowingly sell a faulty product there will be some recourse for your customers.

Personally I don't think LL are malicious like that, I think they're incompetent, but not malicious.



I agree, there's not much room at all and to be honest I think it would be more damaging to the world as a whole, we really don't need more damage at this point in time.