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Letter to Jack Linden

Swiftly Streeter
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
10-30-2008 20:13
bump
PennyTheConstant Dezno
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 6
10-30-2008 20:23
bump...
Kentrock Messmer
Registered User
Join date: 27 May 2007
Posts: 22
econ 101
10-30-2008 20:31
Mr. Corrimal,

Do you have any economists in you university that you can send to San Francisco to explain this suicide move to Jack?
Aura Milev
Registered User
Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 30
10-30-2008 21:10
Well written letter, hopefully Jack Linden learns something from you!@
Shiina Petrov
Registered User
Join date: 29 May 2007
Posts: 37
hear, hear
10-30-2008 23:05
From: MarkByron Falta

Your post is excellent.. and most of it applies to us poor consumers as well as educators and charities.

Yes. I appreciate the letter as well, Phelan.
Dylan Rickenbacker
Animator
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 365
10-31-2008 00:34
/me stands up and applauds.
Thasius Vaher
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 33
10-31-2008 04:01
Quick bump before work.
Korncob Jigsaw
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 15
10-31-2008 04:33
Bump....this issue doesn't concern me nearly as much as you guys..but I currently own about 12ksqm worth of land on an openspace sim...we have barely any lag problems except for one time and we put a stop to it very quickly...it is never happening again. So honestly I'm not seeing the lag problems people are talking about on here.

My situation : I run a totally non profit hangout/simboard skatepark with few visitors just a couple friends here and there, I just use USD conversion for my linden (I use about 55 USD a month) so I'm not in any real danger here...but I would like to say it's absurd to be even considering doing this, they need to do what this guy is saying and make it so if you buy 4 OS's you can have it on the same server, OR at least know who else your sharing servers with...that way you can do something about the lag if your OS sim is having trouble...at the moment you take a chance buying a lot in an OS..all of the OS's I've been to are just fine the only real lag I have encountered was at an overpriced mainland area ironically.

The owner of our SIM (well, the person who is paying the real owner of the sim to own the sim) is saying he probably won't stick with it if the price goes up..I would really, really hate to move from the place I am at..I have made a lot of friends and every other place I've seen that's OS is either too expensive or has an outrageous covenant for what we need.

Anyways, I really hope linden's read this letter and take this guy in, he really seems to know how to deal with these situations.
Equinox Pinion
Registered User
Join date: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 101
Great letter! but can someone explain me the additional cost...
10-31-2008 04:39
Can some IT guy explain me the additional cost LL is claiming to have with the so called “abused” OS? The way I see it is, they have one server for 4 full sims and one server for 16 OS sims. Both servers have 4 CPUs on them.

So when we “abuse” the OS the server with the OS on, it has to work harder and slows down, which leads to lag in SL. But the ones who are suffering are the users. There might a bigger load on the network, but bandwidth cannot be the problem as it is so cheap, that it cannot be the cost factor they are raising to have.

I made a rough calculation and they will get 800.000 USD more from us per month with the price increase, or 9.600.000 USD per year (yes it is not a typo it is 9.6 Mio USD).

So can someone explain me what the additional cost of 9.600.000 USD are per year, that these so called “abused” OS cause?

As a corporate finance person I know that every company is working in finalizing its budget for 2009 and I fear LL is just using us to fill the gap. We also have discussions in our group to increase prices for 2009, but we do not just think lets increase the price on our best selling product, how many millions do we need? Ok lets increase the prices by 70% 2009.

So I would really love to understand these additional cost they are talking about.
Berenice Cazalet
Registered User
Join date: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 30
10-31-2008 07:05
bump
Margie Snookums
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
claps
10-31-2008 07:14
and bumps
Vere Noyes
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 2
10-31-2008 10:22
Wonder if we'd ever see any reply.... bump. (And thanks for posting this in the first place).
Renee Faulds
Rises Out Of The Ashes
Join date: 16 May 2007
Posts: 87
Grandfather
10-31-2008 10:34
Grandfather all existing Open Spaces for 1 year no new terms.

Keep the educational and non-profit prices the same.

or SIMPLY


WE WILL SEE YOU IN COURT

Renee Faulds

Open Space Project

http://www.openspaceproject.net
Kylei Benoir
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2008
Posts: 5
10-31-2008 10:56
From: Ciaran Laval
Well to be fair to Linden Lab they have a similar philosophy, however it seems to be

"If we make an error, our customers pay for it".


Unfortunately... this is what seems to be going on, and at our expense. For me, it's not fun considering I work hard in RL and have invested in SL hoping to later make my own profit. But with sudden changes like this it'll set me back so far. I had been running my childrens clothing store off my Openspace and put my adult avatars house there behind a mountain. This month (November) I had made my tier and would have started profiting from my business in sales versus tier alone... but this price hike will set me back and it'll be a few more months yet before I can start profiting myself. *sighs...................*
Kylei Benoir
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2008
Posts: 5
10-31-2008 11:02
From: Equinox Pinion
Can some IT guy explain me the additional cost LL is claiming to have with the so called “abused” OS? The way I see it is, they have one server for 4 full sims and one server for 16 OS sims. Both servers have 4 CPUs on them.

So when we “abuse” the OS the server with the OS on, it has to work harder and slows down, which leads to lag in SL. But the ones who are suffering are the users. There might a bigger load on the network, but bandwidth cannot be the problem as it is so cheap, that it cannot be the cost factor they are raising to have.

I made a rough calculation and they will get 800.000 USD more from us per month with the price increase, or 9.600.000 USD per year (yes it is not a typo it is 9.6 Mio USD).

So can someone explain me what the additional cost of 9.600.000 USD are per year, that these so called “abused” OS cause?

As a corporate finance person I know that every company is working in finalizing its budget for 2009 and I fear LL is just using us to fill the gap. We also have discussions in our group to increase prices for 2009, but we do not just think lets increase the price on our best selling product, how many millions do we need? Ok lets increase the prices by 70% 2009.

So I would really love to understand these additional cost they are talking about.



My thoughts were similar... my understanding was that 4 OS ran off 1 server and 1 full sim ran off 1 server... so 4 OS would be = to 1 full.. meaning that an OS used at about 3k prims should be equal to a 1/4 full sim used at about 3k prims... I'm not understanding why it's taking more resources to run an OS than the original intent... unless of course an OS wasn't TRULY getting 1/4 the resources of a full sim...
Stoo Straaf
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 62
Excellent
10-31-2008 11:02
Excellent open letter, and so eloquent.

Now, next week when I go buy some rack space and install the opensim code, will you come work for me? :p
Kylei Benoir
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2008
Posts: 5
10-31-2008 11:06
From: Margie Snookums
Bravo -- very well stated!!! We could only hope that LL takes you up on your offer -- looks like they will be needing it from the thousands of angry posts on this forum.


They'll need to do something different than what they're doing or they risk losing thousands and thousands of dollars and paying residents... We can only hope for the best.
Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
10-31-2008 11:12
There are two reasons this could have happened.

First, LL needed hardware and wanted a lot of unwary people to buy it for them. So, they invite a lot of people to buy openspaces with a new offer. Then, they make it caustic for people to be on them, the people leave, and they are left with hardware those people bought and probably profit to boot.

Or...

LL realized late that they overreached with their vision of the openspace offer, and wants to take it back. They know people will be angry, so they suggest something totally caustic, causing huge outrage, and people offer a "more comfortable" option, not-so-coincidentally the one they are really shooting for in the first place, namely, going back to the old openspace situation.

If by January they have decided to back down on much of this, and we find that the final result is just ending up back with the original openspace configuration, we'll know the second was true. That sucks, but it is at least something that can happen in good faith.

If, though, they continue to make it caustic causing a huge exodus back to rental land and mass abandoning of new hardware, well, I think this would need to be addressed legally. There is a reasonable expectation of use relating to how a product or service is advertised. A month or two is not reasonable. If they have just pulled a bait and switch to buy themselves a lot of new hardware on our dime, then this is a heinous abuse.

I agree with this letter, and offer it the bumpage it deserves.
Kelley Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 2 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
10-31-2008 11:22
From: Col Soderstrom
i do hope openlife grid becomes a challenger to sl.....i only found it today and whilst i type i am downloading the software.

I never thought i see the day i leave sl but if this OPENLIFE GRID is any good and shows promise to be bigger and fairer than sl then i will leave sl.

I hate hearing all this about people being burnt by LL....i too will be burnt....i am willing to move on from sl....more people need to tell LL that...get on the wagon and tell LL we are moving if you move the price up!

They only 'laugh' at that statement...they have heard it several times. The best thing to do is have a basic account and don't spend any more $ in here. I have spent thousands of USD $ in SL. Not anymore. I used to love SL. Not anymore. Theres enough corruption and greed going on in RL, sure as hell don't need it in SL too.
Klang Wopat
"The Consultant"
Join date: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 212
10-31-2008 11:32
From: Equinox Pinion
Can some IT guy explain me the additional cost LL is claiming to have with the so called “abused” OS? The way I see it is, they have one server for 4 full sims and one server for 16 OS sims. Both servers have 4 CPUs on them.

So when we “abuse” the OS the server with the OS on, it has to work harder and slows down, which leads to lag in SL. But the ones who are suffering are the users. There might a bigger load on the network, but bandwidth cannot be the problem as it is so cheap, that it cannot be the cost factor they are raising to have.

I made a rough calculation and they will get 800.000 USD more from us per month with the price increase, or 9.600.000 USD per year (yes it is not a typo it is 9.6 Mio USD).

QUOTE]

Hi, IT guy here.

If you run 16 instances of an application on one CPU, versus 4 instances of the application on the same type of CPU, the CPU running the 16 instances will be carrying a heavier load because it will have to divide it's processing cycles up into more slices, which it then has to keep track of to share time and resources. This leads to higher energy use, more heat, and more frequent errors and/or crashes.

Keep in mind that, for all intents and purposes, there is little difference between the server software for full-prim sims and OS sims. It is the number of scripts, agents, prims, etc, that really throw a load onto the CPU.

I have four OS sims, and I've put 3500 prims, 250 scripts, and 40 residents into one simultaneously. Frankly, it was steady as a rock and practically lag free, way better than most mainland regions I've visited.

I've worked as a help desk person, a sys admin, and as an engineer, and I can honestly say that I can not imagine how a price increase like this is required JUST to provide more support for what essentially is a server farm. No way. It appears to be some sort of Orwellian economic sledghammer being used to...do what? Generate cash? Move people back to the Mainland, where land is stagnating?

Or was it done just out of ignorance, or worse yet, incompetence?

BTW, kudos to the original poster. Great letter.
Aeneas Beaumont
*I* am adult content!
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 64
10-31-2008 12:07
And another bump. Kudos to the OP.
Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
10-31-2008 13:03
Phelan,

NCI has much the same problem--though thankfully to a lesser degree. We lease a single OpenSpace sim—Nova Civis Caledon—from Desmond Shang. It normally has about 2000 prims, with the rest reserved for short term sandbox use. Normally it has from zero to three people, but for classes can spike up to 20 (about two hours a day) and for special events up to 60 people (two or three times a week).

Apparently under the previously withheld-from-the-users Linden Lab standards we are abusers. Who knew?

We are going to either have to come up with about 40,000 L$ a month (my guess--Desmond has not yet posted any price increases, as the situation is quite fluid), or accept new LL limitations that will make the sim nearly useless for us.

I guess the only good news for NCI is that since we are not a real world non-profit, we were already paying (via Desmond Shang) the normal price, so the price jump will not be as huge as it is for you.

You have my sympathy.
_____________________
Aminom Marvin
Registered User
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 520
10-31-2008 13:06
From: Carl Metropolitan
Phelan,

NCI has much the same problem--though thankfully to a lesser degree. We lease a single OpenSpace sim—Nova Civis Caledon—from Desmond Shang. It normally has about 2000 prims, with the rest reserved for short term sandbox use. Normally it has from zero to three people, but for classes can spike up to 20 (about two hours a day) and for special events up to 60 people (two or three times a week).

Apparently under the previously withheld-from-the-users Linden Lab standards we are abusers. Who knew?

We are going to either have to come up with about 40,000 L$ a month (my guess--Desmond has not yet posted any price increases, as the situation is quite fluid), or accept new LL limitations that will make the sim nearly useless for us.

I guess the only good news for NCI is that since we are not a real world non-profit, we were already paying (via Desmond Shang) the normal price, so the price jump will not be as huge as it is for you.

You have my sympathy.


According to LL, "the large majority" of openspace users are abusers.
Kelley Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 2 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
10-31-2008 17:21
bump
Berenice Cazalet
Registered User
Join date: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 30
And another bump..
11-01-2008 05:54
...before this great post disappears in the mass.
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