Q3 closed on a high note with an unusually strong September. Talk 11/12 w/Zee Linden
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Katt Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 256
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11-12-2008 13:58
From: Christos Atlantis I agree that primium account need a boost and soon. Here are some ideas Zee maybe you can pass them to the right Linden for evaluation. 1) Make the free land 1024 instead of 512, 512 and 117 prims is not a good incentive anymore, and I know alot of people who don't use it because it is so small. 2) Make premium members only forums, that would have added content and value as a incentive. 3) Create primium only islands, parks, oceans, sandboxes and rezzing areas. 4) Offer premium members more goups, 25 is not enough for serious users that support SL. My company Idea Labs has come up with allot more idea, if you need more you can contact me.  I will pass on these ideas, thank you! |
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Shockwave Yareach
Registered User
Join date: 4 Oct 2006
Posts: 370
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11-12-2008 13:59
If premium accounts are so immaterial to you, then why bother having them at all? Let anyone have land in mainland, premium or basic, so long as they have financial info on file with you.
Gues what? You might even get folks to "buy" in mainland again this way.
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Buckaroo Mu
Alpha Geek
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 106
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11-12-2008 14:02
From: Zee Linden Yes, bots are included in the user hours. You are correct there's no good way to consistently distinguish bot activity. Our estimates are that about 10 to 15% of the hours do come from bots. We think that's been relatively consistent over time and if so, then while it may increase the numbers, the underlying trend is still valid. Growth of user to user economic activity, LindeX volume and our revenue have been quite consistent with the growth in user hours...
Zee, is there any way we could get a breakdown on user hours by login channel? This could give us some info on how many people are using official LL clients, what versions, and, more importantly, /might/ be a way to indicate which logins are bots. Obviously a bot can select whatever channel it likes, but if I'm correct, it has to adhere to the protocol particularities that channel indicates, yes? Either way, would help content creators know how many people are still using pre-1.21 (or even pre-windlight) viewers. |
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Jean Swashbuckler
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 194
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11-12-2008 14:04
From: Zee Linden Also, the number of Openspace sims is now greater than the number of full regions. We're 39% Full regions, 44% Openspace regions and 14% mainland. Thanks for the Google doc and region/os/mainlaind information. Does some form of overhead account for the remaining 3%? Thanks. |
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Mephistopheles McMinnar
Be, or not to be...
Join date: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 70
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11-12-2008 14:04
From: Briana Dawson that was 2003. Voting stations were eliminated in 1.1; There is another, user created, voting station around, called "b-places". This works different because every resident can vote one time only for a place. Maybe Linden Lab could work with them together. In fact traffic counting for a "popular place" is more then worse, look at the high traffic areas and tell me what you see.
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Sedary Raymaker
Registered User
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 59
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11-12-2008 14:10
From: Katt Linden indicating that some users have a high demand for a more structured experience. No surprise there. Private islands have been serving those people for years now, though I doubt any can charge 12x the going rate of *anything*. From: someone Premium subscriptions are required to own mainland, but they are not required to own islands. So, to clarify, a person who doesn't have a premium account can go to the Land Store and buy a region? |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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11-12-2008 14:11
From: Zee Linden Also, the number of Openspace sims is now greater than the number of full regions. We're 39% Full regions, 44% Openspace regions and 14% mainland. /me again wonders how these numbers compare to ones from about 8 months ago. Jean, mainland is about 5k regions of which "a few hundred" are openspace sims, last I heard. edit: and yes, ty for the google update, Zee!
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Nimue Jewell
Unabashedly Leggy
Join date: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 1,745
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11-12-2008 14:17
From: Sedary Raymaker So, to clarify, a person who doesn't have a premium account can go to the Land Store and buy a region? That is the way I've always understood it. I've not tried it out for myself though. |
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Jean Swashbuckler
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 194
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11-12-2008 14:18
From: Meade Paravane /me again wonders how these numbers compare to ones from about 8 months ago.
Jean, mainland is about 5k regions of which "a few hundred" are openspace sims, last I heard.
edit: and yes, ty for the google update, Zee! Meade, thanks for info. My calculator must be on a buzz, I added 39+44+14 and it totaled 97 so I was trying to figure out what's in the remaining 3% bucket. Thanks. |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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11-12-2008 14:22
From: Jean Swashbuckler Meade, thanks for info. My calculator must be on a buzz, I added 39+44+14 and it totaled 97 so I was trying to figure out what's in the remaining 3% bucket. Thanks. Teen grid?
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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11-12-2008 14:23
From: Jean Swashbuckler Meade, thanks for info. My calculator must be on a buzz, I added 39+44+14 and it totaled 97 so I was trying to figure out what's in the remaining 3% bucket. Thanks. Oh. Right. I figured I'd answer something other than what you asked, just in case you were wondering about that, too. 
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Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
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11-12-2008 14:26
If things were going so great then by all means explain how such a decision as to eradicate Secondlife with the open space debacle was made.
Was it that Secondlife was undesirable amongst the planet's governments because we were proving we don't need them at all so they ordered you to kill Secondlife?
Secondlife is the largest stage ever created in the history of the human species and we are all actors playing roles. This is entertainment. And Linden Lab needs to understand this and bring in the right leadership to move this entertainment platform forward and leave the ideology out of it.
Fail to understand this is entertainment and this is an entertainment platform and you will surely be the biggest laughing stock in the history of business on this planet when it is gone by next June at the rate and direction your current leadership is currently taking it.
Why would 1 million people want to log in at the same? For a business meeting? Please. That ain't happening. Ever. Never.
1 million concurrency will be for entertainment purposes. Only. Nothing else matters.
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Katt Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 256
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11-12-2008 14:29
From: Sedary Raymaker ....So, to clarify, a person who doesn't have a premium account can go to the Land Store and buy a region? That's right. Here's info from the Knowledge Base: - What are the different levels of account membership? The Short Answer Account types can be broken down into: * Basic o Free o Can own Estates or Private Regions o Can rent anywhere, depending on the landowner's renting preferences o Can have a Covenant Agreement on Private Regions or Estates owned by other Residents o Can't own land on the mainland o Can't submit support tickets aside from the questions covered in the FAQ o No access to Live Chat * Premium o Pay a monthly fee o Can own land on the mainland o Can submit support tickets o Can initiate Live Chat sessions (to find this Knowledge Base entry, go to "http://secondlife.com/support/ " and search for "What are the different levels of account membership?"  |
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Winter Ventura
Eclectic Randomness
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2,579
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11-12-2008 14:30
From: Christos Atlantis I have 12 stores inworld and in my case I do not use ALTs to transfer money, so you can't use that as a rule and want numbers based on what some people do with thier money I am sure most of the business people get the money in thier account direct and through ALT's.
Just my 2 cents. My point was, that these "user to user" numbers are pretty flexible. In my case, last month, I transferred a sizeable amount of L$ to my savings alt, then changed my mind, and transferred it to myself again, and then transferred it to Xstreet as part of cashing it out. So there's 4x multiplication on that money. "money in, money transferred to savings, money transferred back, money transferred to Xstreet. someone tetsing their vendors with an alt, to make sure they're still working.. is generating "user-to-user transactions, without actually spending or receiving any money. In fact, I recall rumours at one point a year or two back, that some shaky "u2u" numbers came through because someone decided it would be fun to script 2 alts to trade 1L back and forth as fast as possible. Not everyone is dealing with money the same way. Some use alts, some don't. some cash out and rebuy, rather than saving L$.. some spend it as fast as possible, some only camp for pennies. The big busineses that use funding alts, alts to track rental payments, etc.. aren't dealing with their money the same way that the average user is, and these numbers may be grossly out of true because the larger the company, the more need to track accounts. As Zee said, Lindex Volume might be a more relevant figure in terms of judging the economy's health, than the U2U number.
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Curious Rousselot
Registered User
Join date: 9 Sep 2008
Posts: 1
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Idea for increasing premium account holders.
11-12-2008 14:31
From: Zee Linden
...The exchange rate remained steady against the USD at 267 Linden Dollars to one USD. ...
Over 357 auctions have closed in the new Nautilus region where property is selling at L$60 per meter or 12x the average cost of mainland property, indicating that some users have a high demand for a more structured experience.
... We are currently in the process of evaluating ways to make premium subscriptions more valuable to Residents and less dependent on Linden dollar stipends.
-- Zee Linden
Zee, from your own article you mentioned that the 1024m2 properties in Nautilus are selling for L$60 per m2 and also mention that the exchange rate is pretty steady at L$267 per US$1. You do realize that this indicates that people are spending on averagte US$230.00 for each plot. That sort of land pricing is probably why there is such a reduction in premium memberships. I am certainly not the average land buyer in SL but I am probably reasonably representative of the average user of SL and US$230.00 for a setup fee is going to keep me out of land ownership in SL no matter how much land is included. When I say average, I mean an average person who considers SL to be something between an MMORPG and a social networking site. I'm in SL to have fun and hang out with my friends. I'm not in it as a business. If all I want is the Lindend Dollars, it is more cost effective for me to buy them on the Lindex. Based on your numbers, I can get about L$1602 for US$6; and US$6 per month is the most cost effective premium membership price point. That is around L$400 per week whereas the membership give L$300 per week. So, it is more cost effective for me to buy L$ on the Lindex then to pay for a premium membership. As more of my "average" users realize the above, more are going to either give up their premium membership or never get one in the first place. If you've gotten through all of the above and think I have a point in what I say, please read all the way through the next part before dismissing it. A year ago Linden Lab had what they called New Land. For those who don't know what that was, it was discounted pricing on a small plot of land from Linden Lab. There were horribly abuses of it and Linden Lab cancelled the program, and rightly so. I'm not going to go into the problems but I think I might have a solution. My proposal, is to have something similar to New Land but with some additional restrictions to (hopefully) prevent the abuses we saw in it a year ago. First, build new land regions the way you build the Bay City and Nautilus areas. Build a theme to inspire the new owners and provide tools to get started (like the houses and textures in Nautilus). This will help to keep the areas nice looking and not turn into useless ghettos like the older new land areas always wound up. Second, make it so that the new land cannot be sold. You can keep it or you can give it back to Linden Lab. That will prevent it from being abused by land bots and others playing the land market. This also means that you can keep re-using the new land as it is given back to you. So there is a source of land for the next generation of residents. Third, the new land should only be available to premium account holders who do not already have land. I don't mean to say you have to give back your first plot of land in order to buy some other land, I mean that if you already have land, you don't get new land. The intent of new land is for people who have never had land in SL to get started. Fourth, I would say the minimum size of new land should be 1024m2. The space available in the old 512m2 isn't enough to put out a decent house. And I would strongly encourage you to stick with the double prim allowance that you've started in Bay City and Nautilus. As you've seen from your nice starter houses in Nautilus, a nice building takes quiet a few prims and the default for a 1024m2 barely fits a decent house. Fifth, tier on the new land should remain as you have in Bay City and Nautilus. Note that an avatar that own only the 1024m2 is paying a minimum of US$11 per month ($72 per year for premium plus $5 per month tier). If you get rid of that extra tier, it may be cheaper to have multiple premium accounts each owning a 1024m2 then to combine your tier. Although, to be fair I haven't done the math to confirm this. And, with the number of entire mainland regions being abandoned (I found at least 2 without actually trying) you could repurpose those as new land without having to add server space. I have a whole other rant on what I consider to be a fair cost for land in Second Life (at least as far as convincing me to sign-up for a premium account) but I will save that for when a Linden asks (feel free to ask in-world). |
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Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
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11-12-2008 14:46
From: Katt Linden Linden Lab is pleased to announce results for the 3rd quarter of 2008. The charts and details below indicate that Q3 was a very strong quarter in Second Life with significant growth in land, user hours and the inworld economy. The inworld economy was unusually strong in September, with users spending 10% more per hour than the year to date average. Inworld transactions in October declined to levels more consistent with the year to date averages. October results indicate that we should expect land growth to slow in Q4 as Residents reconfigure their land holdings to accommodate the change in pricing and addition of the “Homestead” island type. [Note, Forum readers please see the blog to view the charts; http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/11/12/q3-closed-on-a-high-note-with-an-unusually-strong-september/.]- User Hours Top 100 Million During Q3. In Q3, Residents spent 102.8 million hours in Second Life, up 8% from Q2 and 45% from the same quarter last year. Peak concurrent users of 71,000 grew 7% over Q2 and approximately 31% over Q3 of last year. In October user hours climbed to a record 37 million hours up 11.4% from the prior month. - Residents Own Nearly 2 Billion Square Meters of Land. Land mass in Second Life grew 23% in Q3 to just under 2 billion square meters. This is an increase of 124% year-over-year. The surge in land growth is partially attributable to the launch of lower-priced Openspace regions earlier this year. October results indicate that we should expect land growth to slow in Q4 as Residents reconfigure their land holdings to accommodate the change in pricing and addition of the “Homestead” island type. We expect to see some Residents consolidate their holdings to adjust to the new pricing and product types. - Resident-to-Resident Transactions Top $100 Million. Total Resident-to-Resident transactions, a measure of the gross domestic product in Second Life, grew 21% from the prior quarter to $102M - or just under $1.00 per user hour. The Q3 total translates to an annualized rate of $408 million. By breaking $100M for the first time since Q2 2007, the Second Life economy has now fully recovered from the restriction placed on games of chance in Second Life in mid-2007. In August and September, Residents spent an average of $0.91 and $0.96 per user hour compared to a year-to-date average of $0.87 per user hour. In October, however, spend per user hour was more in line with the YTD average. As a result, the economy shrunk 11% from L$9.9 billion in September to L$8.8 billion in October. The economy appears to have returned in November to the historical average rate of spend per user hour. - LindeX Grew 4.0%. Volume on the LindeX, our virtual currency exchange where users can buy and sell our inworld micro-payment currency, grew 4.0% over Q2 to $28 million. The amount of all the Linden Dollars in circulation grew 4.5% over Q2 to $5.5 billion Linden dollars or just over $20 million USD. The exchange rate remained steady against the USD at 267 Linden Dollars to one USD. LindeX volume remained flat at $9.1 million in October, up 28% from October of 2007. * * * Other highlights. Over 357 auctions have closed in the new Nautilus region where property is selling at L$60 per meter or 12x the average cost of mainland property, indicating that some users have a high demand for a more structured experience. Finally, premium subscriptions continued to decline in Q3, as they have nearly every month since we reduced the stipend we pay out to account holders. The revenue we generate from premium subscriptions is largely offset by the stipends we pay out to these account holders, so this decline doesn’t have a material impact on our business. An important point of clarification is warranted here because this figure is often misinterpreted. Premium subscriptions are required to own mainland, but they are not required to own islands. Additionally, we have many premium subscribers who are not land owners. As such, a decline in premium subscriptions does not mean we have a reduction in the number of land owners. Therefore it should not be used as a measure of the health of the land market, of the Second Life economy or the health of Linden Lab. We are currently in the process of evaluating ways to make premium subscriptions more valuable to Residents and less dependent on Linden dollar stipends. -- Zee Linden I think the 4th quarters going to show an equally impressive reduction in land mass and income. One thing i would like to know is how you all love to show how you require premium subscriptions to own mainland land... Don't these numbers give you any indication as to the fact that only a small number of people own most of the land Residents With Parcels for Sale 7,150 Total Parcels For Sale 51,074 51 thousand parsals being sold by 7 thousand people ... No wonder the mainland land barrons are rejoycing over the demise of openspoaces. You say "Over 357 auctions have closed in the new Nautilus region where property is selling at L$60 per meter or 12x the average cost of mainland property" and you come to the conclusion that it means " some users have a high demand for a more structured experience." I have a question..... How many buyers... are repeat buyers.. I strongly think you folks miss read your own information and do not make accurate assessments... and i am willing to bet land barrons are the majority of the buyers buying up land on Nautilus. Next thing you know little add signs will pop up all over as they split the land into tiny anoying pasals priced at 5000 L a shot and the land will be just as uindesirable as mainland. The fact that its selling at 12x the average cost of mainland property should tip you off that either A somethings really messed up with mainland or B the land barrons are fighting over the bulk of the land so they can in turn gouge the average user. baa i am done with this mess think its almost time for me to move on from this game of lets see who can gouge people worse LL or Greedy rich people. You could not pay me to live there its so laggy its worse then mainland. |
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Lias Leandros
mainlander
Join date: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 3,458
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11-12-2008 14:46
From: Katt Linden Over 357 auctions have closed in the new Nautilus region where property is selling at L$60 per meter or 12x the average cost of mainland property, indicating that some users have a high demand for a more structured experience.
-- Zee Linden Promises of a zoned mainland never materialized. No committee was ever formed to even address the existing issues. Jack Linden's August 8th Mainland Zoning Blog announcement http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/08/05/the-future-of-the-second-life-mainland/. Jack Said: From: someone :
As Estate Manager for the Mainland continents, Linden Lab needs to become more involved. Much more. We have to actively work to provide the best experience for our customers just as the many wonderful private estate owners do for theirs. You can expect to see Linden Lab proactively resourcing, planning and taking action to better support the many mainlanders on our estate; we have a responsibility to our tenants and we take this role very seriously. And from Zee's announcement it has to be concluded that only new customers that pay a King's ransom for mainland are included in this 'best experience'. Those of us that have been paying tier for years on the mainland are swept aside with empty promises. The old mainland deserves the same attention from Linden Lab as the new mainland - your actions are effectively creating slums and suburbs for identical server space. . .
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Rodders Holgado
Registered User
Join date: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 14
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Econimic depression coming
11-12-2008 14:47
Lindens,
Enjoy this quarter of growth because it will be your last. Any chance SL had of survival was killed off by your stupid decision to charge 67% more for an Open Space. People are leaving in droves and that is just the tip of the iceberg, come January there is going to be blood in the streets, and the lot of you are going to be added to the ever increasing unemployment queues when LL can no longer afford to pay its employees as there wont be any revenue streams to do this.
I urge you, for your sake, to reconsider your Open Space policy. We the residents of SL have suffered enough with the introduction of Open Spaces. I saw my sim rental business evaporate in a month and I was forced to convert to Open Space by your policies. It cost me thousands of US dollars to do this, I am not paying a second time I will simple fold up my tent and leave, not because I choose to, but because owning land in SL just isn't viable anymore.
The unemployment rate in the US is 6.5%, are you going to add to it??
Your call.
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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11-12-2008 14:52
From: Zee Linden As such, a decline in premium subscriptions does not mean we have a reduction in the number of land owners. Therefore it should not be used as a measure of the health of the land market, of the Second Life economy or the health of Linden Lab. While a reduction in the number of Premium subscriptions may not mean a reduction in the number of land owners--it certainly is an indicator that not much growth is going to take place. According to the most recent published economic statistics (August 200  , residents own 223,940,336 m2 of mainland, and there are 84,883 Premium members. That works out to average (mean) 2638m2 per Premium member. This of course is an average--lots of Premium members own sims or multiple sims; conversely lots of Premium members own no land, or own land via groups they are part of. However, the amount of land owned per Premium member is currently at an all time high: m2 Year Month 2582 2006 October 1994 2006 November 1755 2006 December 1780 2007 January 1738 2007 February 1744 2007 March 1740 2007 April 1782 2007 May 1761 2007 June 2013 2007 July 2091 2007 August 2027 2007 September 2034 2007 October 1987 2007 November 1988 2007 December 1986 2008 January 2043 2008 February 2086 2008 March 2171 2008 April 2523 2008 May 2530 2008 June 2584 2008 July 2638 2008 August There is very little blood remaining for Linden Lab to get out of the stone--especially since the stone is shrinking! Any significant further growth in mainland sales will have to be driven by growth in Premium memberships (or by a change in the rules to allow non-Premium members to hold mainland). From: Zee Linden As such, a decline in premium subscriptions does not mean we have a reduction in the number of land owners. Therefore it should not be used as a measure of the health of the land market, of the Second Life economy or the health of Linden Lab. I hope so. LL seems to both think Premium memberships are unimportant (or "immaterial" and wants to do a booming business in mainland. You can't have it both ways. I've wondered whether M Linden even understands that a Premium membership is required to purchase mainland. Don't laugh. It's not obvious unless you dig into the SL rules. If M Linden is operating at a high enough level, no one may have told him. That's the only explanation I can find for Linden Lab's schizophrenic approach to mainland and Premium accounts. If LL wants more Premium accounts, I have some suggestions: 1) Increase the stipend back to 400L$. The stipends were dropped during a time when the value of the L$ versus the US$ was dropping. This is not the problem at the current time. 2) Increase the base amount of free tier to 1024 or 1536 m2. This would produce an immediate jump in both premium accounts, land sales, and price of mainland--not to mention a spike in overall economic growth for SL businesses as people buy more stuff to put on thier new land. 3) Increase the group limit for Premium account holders. Nearly every long-term SL resident is constantly juggling groups. 4) Promote the benefits of Premium accounts. LL does very little promotion. Perhaps you could enlist the residents by setting up a referrals program for account upgrades (not just new accounts). 5) Promote the exclusivity of Premium status. Perhaps LL could offer things like: Premium-only office hours (at hours when most of your US customers are NOT at work), monthly gifts to Premium account holders, commissioned from high-end content creators, an in-world help desk staffed by a Linden Liaison that's open only to Premium account holders. Anything that will make a Premium account holder feel like they are with the "in-crowd". That stuff is powerful marketing juju |
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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11-12-2008 14:53
Oh--one other suggestion for increasing your Premium accounts: Require each bot run to be on a Premium account.
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Zee Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 153
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11-12-2008 14:56
From: Mephistopheles McMinnar Zee, i'm not talking about usefull bots, i'm talking about traffic bots. I think it's easy for Linden Lab to remove the traffic from the calculating of popular places. I remember 2004 till 2006 that there where alot of SL-voting stations around in Second Life. Back to the roots would be a good way, because if popular places aren't longer bound to traffic, all traffic bots are senseless. Agreed. Traffic bots are senseless. Lots to do to fix popular places. We'll get there. |
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Katt Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 256
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11-12-2008 14:57
From: Jini Hammerer ....baa i am done with this mess think its almost time for me to move on from this game of lets see who can gouge people worse LL or Greedy rich people.
Strong words, Jini! Perhaps it'll make you feel better to remember that you can enjoy Second Life for free? |
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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11-12-2008 14:58
From: Zee Linden We did change the pricing structure from Jack's original post in a post that Mark made. Yes--he made it worse. I presume that was intended to discourage complaints about future price increases. From: Zee Linden We are not planning to make further changes to the pricing in the post that Mark made, so for now, those are final Any idea for how long? Uncertainty is anathema to investment. |
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Zee Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 153
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11-12-2008 14:58
From: Khamon Fate We've been hearing this since 1.2 was released in 2004 and it frankly rings completely hollow now. Please at least publish a timeline, some of the ideas that are being "evaluated," or any other information that might make us remotely believe this'll happen in the next five years.
Thanks and Have a Good Day Its been a long time. We did recently hire Tom Hale as our Chief Product Officer and its one of his near term goals. I'm not sure of the timeline. |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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11-12-2008 15:00
From: Katt Linden Strong words, Jini! Perhaps it'll make you feel better to remember that you can enjoy Second Life for free? Stop it, seriously, moderate yourself a little hey. There's no such thing as a free lunch, someone is paying for it. |
