The problem with alpha sorting is caused by how the video card draws objects on the screen (near to far).
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
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01-14-2009 14:35
It is not *entirely* due to the way the video card works, bcause it became MUCH worse when Windlight was introduced. I'm not sure of the details, but it seems like the Z buffer is now sorted in order of surface instead of polygon. _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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Casey Seifert
No faith in humanity
Join date: 7 Nov 2005
Posts: 50
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01-14-2009 14:45
The problem with alpha sorting is caused by how the video card draws objects on the screen (near to far). There is no fix for it short of changing how video cards work, which should happen in a few years when hardware gets fast enough for real time ray tracing. Until then you can do what professional game developers do and not put alpha textures so close together. Wait... I've played several games old and new, and none of them do this. Also it's not JUST when they're near, does the same is they're far apart as well. Look at Oblivion with all the alpha texture grass all over the place, lots of textures using alpha very near each other. There are several examples of this on a lot of games. Sorry, but I think you made that all up from pseudo knowledge. =/ 2. When looking up a UUID, if it's in the cache, use it, otherwise request it. 3. If the file in the cache is incomplete, use it anyway and just request the rest of the file. That'd be a simple way to save money/bandwidth and speed up current loading times. Far far too simple and much of an improvement for it to be put into effect. Besides, it won't make the client look more shiney and realistic, people want new features and prettier environments, not stable, efficent clients. [/sarcasm] _____________________
A perfect world is a perfect hell.
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DR Dahlgren
Content Creator
Join date: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
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Alpha textures
01-14-2009 14:52
Okay, I agree, much worse since windlight. Was always there but not so hard to work around. Now, Alpha's interfere with each other when ever one is in front of another, even if seperated by several meters. This makes it almost impossible to keep them apart since they are used for water, windows, plants, etc etc.
Seems that texture loading has slowed dramatically since windlight, and now that pritority has been changed to make sculpts load quicker, it appears normal visual textures take even longer. It seems to me that much of the client and server is code is based on modules and the version control of these modules is non-exhistant. This appears to be behind the resurgence of many bugs. Gone in one version, back two or three versions later. Megaprim exploit is a good example. Starting from scratch on both client and server sounds like a good idea to me. Write and test all new on beta grid, the swack it over once running good. Even if it took taking SL offline for a day or two, would be well worth it if it sorted out a lot of this mess we seem to be in now. DRD _____________________
DR Dahlgren
Dahlgren Engineering and Design Connecting Your Worlds |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
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01-14-2009 14:54
On the other hand, while SL could do a better job of alpha sorting, you can't compare SL to other 3d software. A game, even an MMO game, has textures and content that iis, in general, created and laid out by professional game developers who know how to prevent problems with alpha sorting. SL content is created, by and large, by amateurs. There are many alpha sorting problems that could be avoided by the content creator within SL if they restrict themselves to the same kinds of uses that the professional builder of Oblivion avoided. In many cases the game simply does not support 8-bit alpha at all, and alpha textures all have 1-bit alpha like Linden Trees and Grass.
Texture loading didn't seem to take a big hit for me with Windlight. The big hit came a little while later when they fixed a security bug involving the UDP object/texture download code. It's improved a bit since then, but that's when it took the hit. _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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DR Dahlgren
Content Creator
Join date: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
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Thanks for all the info
01-14-2009 15:29
I do appreciate this discussion on textures, I am learning quite a bit. Any suggestions on how to use alpha to eliminate some of the issues would be greatly appreciated, or pointers to where I can find such information.
Thanks DRD _____________________
DR Dahlgren
Dahlgren Engineering and Design Connecting Your Worlds |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
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01-14-2009 15:39
No more than one alpha texture in a non-HUD product, and preferably backed by a non-alpha prim? It's all about avoiding overlap.
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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leliel Mirihi
thread killer
Join date: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 129
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01-14-2009 17:47
It's not just that professional game developers know what they're doing, they also have complete control over the avatars, objects, and there placement in the environment which you will never have in sl. SL's greatest strength, user made content, is also its greatest weakness, poor performance and rendering glitches.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-14-2009 18:34
Right. If you could go anywhere in a professionally built game, you'd see all kinds of holes and missing surfaces, even in the apparent middle of solid land or buildings, because they're places that can never be seen by the avatar. In some games there are places you can get through the interior edged of the world because the designer missed a hole or left some barrier a little low, and there's no "there" there. Like the edge of a sim in SL but more jarring.
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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Bina Mayo
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1
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texture-memory-slider
01-14-2009 23:03
I use a NV GTX 260 grafic-card with 181.20 driver, and the RC does not detect the grafic-card-memory right. In the 1.21 i can adjust the slider of the texture-memory to the right value of 896MB, but the slider of the RC ends at 512MB.
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Ephraim Kappler
Reprobate
Join date: 9 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,946
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Resolution Reset
01-15-2009 15:33
I've been using 1-22-5-107013 for the past couple of days and it has reset the resolution several times to 800x600 without any input from me. On three occasions the screen remained completely black after I attempted to reset the resolution and I had to restart.
My password was filled in and ready to go on two of those restarts, even though I never tick the 'Remember password' box. I've also noticed that the camera doesn't reset to follow my av closely when he is obscured by another object in a tight build: following him down a narrow hallway, the ceiling or another wall might get in the way and it stays that way. I had forgotten this ever used to happen since more recent viewers would automatically reset to find the av. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-15-2009 15:36
I've been using 1-22-5-107013 for the past couple of days and it has reset the resolution several times to 800x600 without any input from me. _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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Ephraim Kappler
Reprobate
Join date: 9 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,946
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01-16-2009 01:37
It would seem to me that many very fundamental changes were made to the current production viewer that have caused more trouble than they were worth. I noticed that 1-21-6-99587 was much 'lighter' at 21 MB as opposed to the first version I downloaded in 2007, which was something in the region of 27/28MB as far as I recall. That isn't a bad thing in itself, of course, and slimmer software is more often than not a better thing but it indicates significant changes to the software nevertheless.
Also the interval between that last release in October and the next version is already much longer than any I have seen in the past eighteen months, which leads me to believe they left a few vital screws and washers lying around on the kitchen floor. |
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Maggie Darwin
Matrisync Engineering
Join date: 2 Nov 2007
Posts: 186
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01-16-2009 22:23
I had that happen, I was running SL in a window and it went to full screen (and at 800 x 600) ... and I *had not* hit "alt enter". I accidently hit alt-enter all the time. Usually when I swing camera and then hit enter to get a chat bar, but don't quite get off the alt key from the cam swing fast enough. T'was a real bugger on viewers where switching in or out of full-screen caused crashes, and there's been too many of those. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-17-2009 03:06
I accidently hit alt-enter all the time. Usually when I swing camera and then hit enter to get a chat bar, but don't quite get off the alt key from the cam swing fast enough.  _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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GC Continental
Registered User
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 17
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01-18-2009 17:32
I do this all the time. I would like a spot to completely disable that shortcut entirely. I don't use it and don't want it, and I type faster than SL renders the UI right now.
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Ramzi Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 8 Jun 2004
Posts: 107
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01-19-2009 12:19
It would seem to me that many very fundamental changes were made to the current production viewer that have caused more trouble than they were worth. I noticed that 1-21-6-99587 was much 'lighter' at 21 MB as opposed to the first version I downloaded in 2007, which was something in the region of 27/28MB as far as I recall. That isn't a bad thing in itself, of course, and slimmer software is more often than not a better thing but it indicates significant changes to the software nevertheless. Hi Ephraim- You're right that the newer viewers are "lighter", but that savings of 7MB was not in the removal of large chunks of code. On the release notes of version 1.21.6, we noted that we eliminated about 14MB of pre-installed textures (images) that were no longer used -- some were REALLY REALLY old, and others used to come pre-installed for Orientation Island, which we dont use anymore for new residents who sign up. see the note on: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/1.21#Source_changes: We occasionally do remove code, yes. But in recent months, nothing significant from code has been removed- you're seeing a size difference just from old TGA and PNG image files. Hope that helps to clarify. |
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Ramzi Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 8 Jun 2004
Posts: 107
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01-19-2009 12:21
I had that happen, I was running SL in a window and it went to full screen (and at 800 x 600) ... and I *had not* hit "alt enter". Hi Argent, I think we have a fix for what you describe, coming up in RC6. We'll list these as fixed when RC6 comes out: * Fixed: VWR-11495: Full screen resolution setting changes to 800x600 at every start * Fixed: VWR-11344: Windowed to Fullscreen switch: sometimes resolution got lost |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-19-2009 12:27
Tank you Ramzi. Does that include having the thing mysteriously start up in full-screen instead of windowed?
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Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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Awnee Dawner
object returned to sim
Join date: 7 Apr 2008
Posts: 206
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01-20-2009 00:57
hey!
wouldnt it be better to have 1 mac intel build 1 mac ppc build instead of the ub? downloadfile would be smaller, less footprint on the users hd, ... some alternate viewers have started this way. _____________________
>> yes <<
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DR Dahlgren
Content Creator
Join date: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
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01-20-2009 01:26
Hi Argent, I think we have a fix for what you describe, coming up in RC6. We'll list these as fixed when RC6 comes out: Thats great Ramzi that some issues are being addressed and I do mean that. But in truth, there is a simple fix for screen res issue, don't run the client full screen. While all issues should be addressed, it isn't really very far up the importance scale. How about finding a fix for the issue with new inventory window, texture picker and people pickers that take forever to open and sometimes crash the client in the process. This was broken in 1.21 and has been documented, jira'd, blogged and forum'd yet there is not a word forthcoming so far from LL. When trying to move from the default to blank texture, it can take up to several minutes before the window opens. Multiply that by a few dozen prim you need to texture, and building becomes a real chore. Lets see, 1.21 with several RC's and coming up on RC6 for 1.22, you would think somewhere someone could find time to take a look at something that critically effects the ability of content creation, you know, the stuff made by the "Your" in "Your world - Your imagaination". _____________________
DR Dahlgren
Dahlgren Engineering and Design Connecting Your Worlds |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-20-2009 05:20
But in truth, there is a simple fix for screen res issue, don't run the client full screen. It just starts up that way, sometimes. No explanation. _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
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DR Dahlgren
Content Creator
Join date: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
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Wasn't trying to pick on you A.S.
01-20-2009 08:20
I was simply pointing out, that though having the screen res change is definately an irritant (though I have not seen this happen), there is a workaround for some, and after it is resolved, it appears to stay that way, at least until a relog.
The issue with daughter windows that access the inventory (texture / people pickers and Inventory > New Window) taking progressively longer to open each time they are accessed until eventually the client crashes, should be show stopper and that 9 RC's with this issue documented is 8 too many. I am still waiting for a Linden to actually respond to this. Probably grow old waiting too, since it would not add any bling if fixed... _____________________
DR Dahlgren
Dahlgren Engineering and Design Connecting Your Worlds |