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How many are genuinely concerned with exchanging L$ for Currency?

Eshjee Paverini
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Join date: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
07-27-2007 08:36
After the new gaming/wagering ban, how many of you are genuinely concerned with exchanging your L$ for real currency now?

How things now --appear-- to be, if you have interacted with any SecondLife gaming or sploders or any other form of wagering/gaming and you try to cash your funds out... You could be investigated and/or your personal information given out because of possible profits from them?

It definately puts me on edge and I certainly have no desire to buy any MORE L$ in the near future.
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
07-27-2007 10:11
I voted no, mostly because I don't plan on having any lindens left to cash out.
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Draco18s Majestic
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Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
07-27-2007 10:33
No, because I never made a significant value out of the tiny amounts of "throw a quater in, you never know what might happen" gambling. If the IRS *really* cares that much I'll happily forfeit my L$2000 (which is probably an overestimation).
Cracker Hax
Registered User
Join date: 6 Mar 2007
Posts: 15
08-11-2007 00:11
I voted yes, because one of these days, Linden labs will pull their never-ending 265L/$1.00 buy order and the linden will crash. They have a pretty good racket going with price-fixing lindex, selling 30 new sims a day and creating millions of linden dollars from nothing. If they stopped buying and selling lindens and started adding a limited amount of new lindens per day, we would see the actual value of the linden (which has no real value in reality aside from demand). They are stealing from us.

Add that to the extreme loss of asset value because land we previously bought at inflated rates is worth next to nothing now, and you have a recipe for broke businesses and loss of decent SL content. Sometimes I wonder if they feel like rats on a sinking ship, because they aure are struggling to get every single dime they can get out of it.
Gisela Vale
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Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 114
08-12-2007 14:59
The demonstration may have begun as a response to LL's ban on gaming, but it has come to represent much more than that in my opinion.

The ban on gaming created a devastating ripple effect on SL's economy, affecting every single industry from land prices to fashion sales. It's not just about bringing gaming back, its about whether or SL will continue to exist for any of us.

Land prices are less than half their value prior to the ban. I've heard so many insist this is the best thing to happen, but those values are an integral part of SL's economy. You may be able to afford cheap land at this very moment, but it will serve no purpose if SL dies.

The primary problem with the ban is that LL is allowing governmental regulations to get a foot in the door. This has far reaching implications which are, in my mind, much more serious. It opens the door to regulation of the internet. There isn't a government in the world who isn't chomping at the bit to accomplish that feat because of its incredible revenue potential.

Yes LL does have liability because of the UIGEA and most people believe that is why the ban was implemented. It is a little more complicated than that though. This is a virtual world and the things in it exist in cyberspace. It is only by virtue of the grid staying open that any of it is possible. Once the plug is pulled, SL and everything in it disappears, including EVERYTHING you obtained with real currency, whether it be land or lindens or whatever. And if it disappears you have no recourse whatsoever.

LL's liability is not tied to any RL laws because they don't apply to virtual reality. Not yet anyway. Their liability is the result of a single action on their part - the launch of the LindeX whereby they themselves encourage and facilitate the exchange of $L for USD.

If they didn't do that one thing, their liability would be zero and RL law simply would not apply to SL. There will always be activities conducted here in which individual players may have liability from their local laws such as pornography or failing to pay sales taxes, and yes gambling too among others, but individual player liability doesn't challenge the existence of the game itself or pose any danger to SL's economy.

Cue the *gasps* of all those who fear losing the ability to exchange their $L for USD.

Simple fact is that it would still be traded. SL got along fine without the LindeX before it came into existence and $L was traded for real currency quite well. There are many outlets already available and any number of players in-game willing to make trades via Paypal or Ebay. There are also third parties who regularly trade in game items, not just SL but many other games as well. They aren't prolific in SL now because it simply isn't lucrative to compete with the LindeX (LL owns the LindeX.) If the LindeX didn't exist, then third party trading would become lucrative again. It would be highly competitive.

Gaming or gambling in SL, whichever you prefer to call it, is not the only industry which stands to lose in SL because of the liability LL has from owning the LindeX. The intrusion of RL laws in a virtual reality game is a loss to everyone, because then you suddenly become subject to RL regulation no matter what you do. If you think that's a plus, then in my mind you are part of the problem because you support that philosophy.

Cue the *huffing* of the whiners who demand regulation in SL because they have been ripped off by Ginko, or that builder, or that fashion designer, or that scriptor, or that shoe shop owner, or that land seller, or that escort, or that casino owner, or any number of ripoff artists that exist both in RL and virtual worlds. We could even argue that LL has ripped off people left and right because they aren't well known for treating their customer base with anything resembling respect. (Please note, I do believe individual Lindens do their damnedest to help us - but they are ham-strung by company policy)

The fact that SL is an extension of the internet is lost on many. You have to use common sense here as you would anywhere else and unfortunately the learning curve for that is just as high as the game itself.

Basically LL's philosophy, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is to not interfere and allow us to govern ourselves. Self-governing is already done in SL in lots of ways, albeit on a very small scale. We have yet to reach a point of being able to do it on a large scale, but then the game doesn't really facilitate that, as it's difficult to disseminate information and large gatherings are fairly impossible.

We do have a philosophy as a consumer base though at least I think most of us do. We are all here for a reason. It isn't a matter of whether it's a good or bad reason, just whether we can reasonably expect to remain here based on it.

That said, it goes without saying we all have some interest in preserving the game. I think we have a responsibility to take some kind of action if we see its existence is in danger. That is my reason for protest and demonstration. It should be yours as well if you choose to become involved. Some of you don't care to, but those who do should not be subjected to ridicule or castigation.

Protests about the stability of the grid as opposed to introducing new features is a prime example of how most of us demonstrate. We want the game to work like it should. This protest (which LL responds to btw) makes the game better for all, thus ensuring we don't evacuate in droves, and it ultimately preserves the game.

I see the gaming protest as serving the same purpose because of the fear the economical fallout from the ban will result in the death of SL. You can make fun and flame all you want about "the sky is falling" but the numbers are there to support that fear. Yes, LL owns the game and can make any decision they want concerning it, but that doesn't absolve you or me of any responsibility to do or say what we can to help preserve both LL and the game. My suggestion to that end is to call for LL to ditch the LindeX. I'm not anyone special and they won't listen to me. But if I can help enough other people to understand why, they may join in and demonstrate too or perhaps offer an even better solution to what I see is a very real danger to the game. As individuals, little can be accomplished. But as a group we have considerable power to effect change as long as we are reasonable.

Although it's really convenient to buy or sell $L through the LindeX, I believe it's a mistake to have it and its existence may ultimately be the reason SL dies. LL's ownership of the LindeX gives them liability because THEY are giving $L value. If someone else was doing it, it wouldn't affect SL.

LL assumes much more liability by virtue of the LindeX, than just being subject to US Federal gaming laws. If USD wasn't involved, the gambling laws wouldn't apply to them at all. BUT . . .

It is quite possible the whole concept of LL issuing $L is completely illegal itself. Under US Federal Securities law, it could be construed as issuing an unregistered security. Because the $L is traded for USD on the LindeX, are they in fact issuing securities for USD? If so, that IS DEFINITELY illegal under federal securities law - virtual or not. Technically securities, for all intents and purposes, are virtual anyway because you just don't see actual stock certificates anymore. $L is no different because if you buy $L, basically you are hoping someone will pay more for it, or that you can exchange it for something with value, so it appears they are acting like a company issuing stock, i.e. selling virtual securities. ALL BECAUSE THEY OWN THE LINDEX.

If this is the case, it stands to reason, LL banned gaming in SL because they fear that they are facilitating an online gaming operation and can't hide behind the "we are nothing but a chat room really" argument. Not to mention they are going directly against their own TOS in which they state $L has no value. LL cannot legally sell $L and maintain an exchange, virtual or not, in their own corporation, which may be exactly why they have made a point they are only acting as agent, but in fact they are not (because they issue more $L).

An investigation by the US Department of Justice or the Attorneys General would most likely result in closure of the grid long before the issue was decided in a court action.

It doesn't really make sense to me that LL would roll over as the result of the UIGEA and create such economic hardship for themselves as well as their customer base in-world. Yes, if the economy in SL suffers, so does LL. The UIGEA in its current form has no teeth really and LL could easily position themselves for protection from it. The question is why wouldn't they want to?


I invite anyone to read the securities laws themselves here:
http://www.sec.gov.

I hope to invite discussion as well as pertinent comment, not flames.
Discussion and sharing information with others is important. My friend Ramo told me about the unregistered securities issue, and after reading the law myself I agree.

There are links to the UIGEA as well as the Barney Frank bill being introduced this year in a couple of other posts found here:
post #s 1 and 32,
/341/61/200636/6.html

Many other comments in that thread include interesting links as well.

Most assume that internet gambling is illegal, but there is no federal law, as yet anyway, that outlaws it. The UIGEA just makes it illegal to fund it with USD. The Barney Frank bill intends to correct that and place additional restrictions on the gaming industry. If you do even a little reading on these issues, it's a real eye-opener on how deceptive the politicians are at getting laws passed and how the government is taking steps towards regulating the internet.
Day Oh
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 1,257
08-12-2007 15:12
I don't understand the question. Are we actually considering whether L$ should be tradeable for money??
Babyblues Boffin
Second Life Resident
Join date: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 33
08-12-2007 19:14
Very Good Gisela:-)

If I read that correctly ..LL has their own unregistered currancy and is making big bucks from it.
They can say until they are blue in the face that the Linden Dollar has no value...I think it's been proven differently.
Ed Gobo
ed44's alt
Join date: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 220
08-12-2007 19:27
Lindens are just entries in databases stored on linden's system. There are no certificates, no guarantees, and no liability should the game (sl) fold.

For gambling the real issue is how the money from betting flows into the gambling system. I don't really think it matters how, but somehow the card companies (mainly paypal) are passing money from players into the system, and it is that flow that the laws mean to stop.
Gisela Vale
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 114
Thank you Babyblues
08-12-2007 21:10
From: Babyblues Boffin
Very Good Gisela:-)

If I read that correctly ..LL has their own unregistered currancy and is making big bucks from it.
They can say until they are blue in the face that the Linden Dollar has no value...I think it's been proven differently.



I'm pleased to have at least one reader!




One further point I'd like to make is that when things get bad, they tend

to snowball. Because of US Federal Securities laws, we may see some "qui

tam" litigation as the result. This would certainly bring on a US DOJ

investigation and possibly tie up any resources LL might have to defend

itself.

Qui tam lawsuits are quite unique. They are basically filed by

individuals on behalf of the government. They are also sometimes called

"whistleblower" lawsuits.

This type of lawsuit is particularly attractive in our litigious and

greedy times because the government is required to do all the work

basically and the person filing the suit is entitled to 15-30 percent of

the total recovery. Additionally they receive protection from

retaliation.

In 2005 alone, a record $3.1 billion was reclaimed from corrupt

businesses from qui tam actions. My math sucks, but isn't 15% of 3.1

billion something like 450 million. That's quite an incentive.


"In qui tam provisions the government gives private citizens the right

and the financial incentive to retain a private lawyer to file a lawsuit

to act in the place of law enforcement."


Lawyers will take these on in a heartbeat without even a consultation

fee. It would not surprise me to learn that one has already been filed,

but I seriously doubt few on this forum would bother since the posts

aren't read or taken seriously to begin with.


Just my two cents.



You can read more about these here.
http://www.whistleblowerfirm.com/faq.html#1
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-12-2007 22:17
From: Babyblues Boffin
Very Good Gisela:-)

If I read that correctly ..LL has their own unregistered currancy and is making big bucks from it.
They can say until they are blue in the face that the Linden Dollar has no value...I think it's been proven differently.


So does Chuckie Cheese
Osgeld Barmy
Registered User
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 3,336
08-12-2007 23:57
i sold all my land, downgraded and cashed out 6 days ago

needless to say i dont give a royal crap about it now
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
08-13-2007 05:26
From: Gisela Vale
I'm pleased to have at least one reader!


You are dedicated I will give you that. I don't agree with you, I don't support your cause, but if by some chance you get what you want, you will have earned it.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
Wulfric Chevalier
Give me a Fish!!!!
Join date: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 947
08-13-2007 05:29
From: Brenda Connolly
if by some chance you get what you want, you will have earned it.


If she gets it by chance, won't they have to ban her?
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
08-13-2007 09:03
From: Wulfric Chevalier
If she gets it by chance, won't they have to ban her?


You win!
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Chilly Charlton
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 483
Sex is next.
08-13-2007 12:23
Sex is next.

Since the L$ is now real money

And

PayPal + Sex = NO NO

Then

The writing is on the wall. We know who pulls LL's strings now. The L$ HAS become real, it is no longer our world our imagination, the motto needs to be changed (I have some suggestions).

I'm only sorry I wasn't vocal when others before were GOMed. I would cite a famous german poem but it's been cited enough and I'm just as guilty.

Say goodbye to escorts and cam shows and stripper clubs and snap on toys ... ok say good bye to any of the forementioned that are not FREE. no I'm not into any of that sex stuff but many were not into simulated games of chance and they didn't care. People only care about thier own particular interests and it's easy to pick off one group at a time when no one supports each other.

L$ will be divorced from sex and sex will be free and all those whose interest in sex and L$ or have invested in it will be left holding the bag. LL does not care about it's residents nor it's groups and as an idividual cares NOTHING. LL only cares about LL.

I understand the changes, I disagree with the execution of the changes. LL doesn't have any respect for it's own community otherwise LL would be more graceful in how it chose to grow up.


I give it less then a year.
Darien Caldwell
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
08-13-2007 12:26
Nobody in SL has ever had sex. Talking about sex over the internet does not equal sex. :p
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-13-2007 12:38
From: Darien Caldwell
Nobody in SL has ever had sex. Talking about sex over the internet does not equal sex. :p


No one has ever had sex over the internet either. Or if they have, I need a much better computer than the one Ive got.

:p
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
08-13-2007 13:06
From: Colette Meiji
No one has ever had sex over the internet either. Or if they have, I need a much better computer than the one Ive got.

:p

Well the salesman that came to my door said FIOS was a remarkable breakthrough.......
_____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

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Chilly Charlton
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 483
08-13-2007 14:16
For PayPal sex is not simply the act, I doubt anyone ever paid a RL hooker for RL sex through PayPal, we are talking about pornographic materials, representations, pixels even == SL

This is what happens when you make L$ = Real dollars. It's done.
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
08-13-2007 19:40
From: Colette Meiji
No one has ever had sex over the internet either. Or if they have, I need a much better computer than the one Ive got.

:p


And it makes your keyboard sticky! :D

On topic: For a goverment to get involved in the whole Lindex thing, wouldnt they also have to go after every Online Game that has people selling & trading items, characters, and accounts for money??

I can find several dozen websites that allow someone to do this, so if the Lindex shut down you just move to another site.

The L$ only holds value to users who use Second Life. If LL were to pull the plug tomorrow, your L$ become worthless.
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really pissy & mean right now and NOT happy with Life.
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
08-13-2007 19:43
From: Chilly Charlton
For PayPal sex is not simply the act, I doubt anyone ever paid a RL hooker for RL sex through PayPal, we are talking about pornographic materials, representations, pixels even == SL

This is what happens when you make L$ = Real dollars. It's done.


You know this from Experience??? :eek:

I prefer sending a money order for my Life-Like E-Z Luvin' Doll
:D
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really pissy & mean right now and NOT happy with Life.
Osgeld Barmy
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Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 3,336
08-13-2007 20:16
From: Tod69 Talamasca
And it makes your keyboard sticky! :D

On topic: For a goverment to get involved in the whole Lindex thing, wouldnt they also have to go after every Online Game that has people selling & trading items, characters, and accounts for money??

I can find several dozen websites that allow someone to do this, so if the Lindex shut down you just move to another site.

The L$ only holds value to users who use Second Life. If LL were to pull the plug tomorrow, your L$ become worthless.


you may find websites that do this, but 99% of online games prohibit the act and will permanently ban you, your ip, your mac get your phone number, neuter your dog and delete your account(s) instantly
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
08-14-2007 02:01
From: Osgeld Barmy
you may find websites that do this, but 99% of online games prohibit the act and will permanently ban you, your ip, your mac get your phone number, neuter your dog and delete your account(s) instantly


Aye, they say they'll ban it. I'm sure they will.... if someone let them know So-N-So did this, but for the most part it happens.

Hence the term "Farming". Heh- I've encountered many "farmers". Quite pitiful actually. I always thought "games" meant "fun"?

And yea, these games have become alot more aware of what goes on. Such as eBay banning sales of the items & stuff from these games.

The nice thing about SL is- We supposedly "own" the copyrights to our work. If that holds true is yet to be proven. ;)
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Gisela Vale
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 114
The whole point is . . .
08-14-2007 02:09
From: Brenda Connolly
You are dedicated I will give you that. I don't agree with you, I don't support your cause, but if by some chance you get what you want, you will have earned it.



It isn't for me. It's for everyone. If I win, so do you.

The information that I'm picking up on is the corporations were complaining loudly they were getting NO traffic because of the casinos. Yes the casinos were jam packed most all the time. Corporations do not realize their own traffic problems are due to the fact no one really wants them here. People are here to do their own thing - if they want to be sold on some corporation's advertising, they will do it in RL.

Now that the casinos are gone, what will corporations blame their lack of traffic on next? The former casino people aren't frequenting the corporate sims. Are you?

What is the only other industry in SL that jam packs AV's in their sims? The sex industry. The cybering will never be regulated, but you can bet any pornographic depiction whether it is AV simulated sexual acts, graphic pornographic distribution, or paraphernalia, it will be banned next. The sex industry in SL might even be bigger than the casino industry was. Pornography like gambling is regulated or illegal i RL because of it's huge revenue potential. If LL still has the LindeX, LL will still be liable for processing pornography related proceeds through PayPal and credit card companies. And the only reason for that is because $L is traded for USD through the LindeX.

Do your own map searches and find the corporate sims. I counted only six AVs online at any given time in the IBM sims. IBM has 33 sims!

Word is, that IBM is either committed to or is going to spend $10 million here. LL is gonna need it. I just hope they get it before the qui tam. Whoever successfully files a qui tam action will be set for life, so I fully expect that to happen.

This is not about saving gaming or the sex industry per se. Like it not, both of those industries are the backbone of SL's economy, along with land values. These three industries are what has allowed SL to grow. Without them, the only big money left will be corporate interests and I don't see any of you falling all over yourselves to support them and keep their money here.

This is about keeping SL for the benefit of us ALL. This is a virtual world and we need to keep it that way by keeping out RL laws and regulations. The only way we can is to demand that LL ditch the LindeX. This doesn't remove USD value from the $L, it just removes LL's liability for it.

We all know that LL has NOT wanted to or can't afford (?) to upgrade their servers. Many don't realize it, but the huge number of money transactions from the casinos put incredible stress on the servers. There was simply no way for LL to introduce voice into the grid while that continued. The voice component is of the most value to corporate interests for meetings and classes. Lot's of people don't mind it, a few even like it, but most can do without voice, particularly since they already feel it's been a trade-off for grid performance. It is evident with the current grid conditions that even without the casinos in operation, the grid remains fraught with problems.

It's already a documented fact the law makes NO difference regarding LL's liability for gambling/gaming or the sex industry and a solution to that end has been provided.

Corporate introduction into SL is a mistake. Neither they nor LL fully realize it at this time. The corporations have the big money though and they will get their way as long as we remain divided.

We really are a primitive group of people in our SLs - it's either all about the money, or it's my interests and not yours that are important. We are certainly a long way from self government if we can't support each other.

I want to build, script, buy land, game, sell things, and gamble if I feel like it. How cool would it be to actually make real money here doing some of those things. I do not want to be a part of the sex industry or be involved in the role playing with beating, gagging, raping, and slaves and all.

The thing is, I can do all that I want and I DON'T have to participate in the other. But just because I don't like it doesn't mean you can't. So it isn't hard for me to support your right to it.

I don't understand why it's so hard for you to support others. *shrugs*
Gisela Vale
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 114
Seems to me . . .
08-14-2007 02:25
From: Osgeld Barmy
i sold all my land, downgraded and cashed out 6 days ago

needless to say i dont give a royal crap about it now


You do give a royal crap or ya wouldn't have done that and ya wouldn't be here reading or posting.

Many more have done the same.
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