Render unto Caesar

Personally, gambling has no interest to me at all. I am surprised SL isn't openly fighting all of this in court.

If there is a Mob Lobby, they must be worried that SL will some day steal all their business---well it's all going to be like sweeping back the sea.

There can be many arguments that virtual realities are NOT subject to laws of the land. Certainly laws involving real life harm, should always pertain, but what about laws of a collective imagination?

But how easy does LoL roll over and play dead?

As though the "Laws" of a Virtual Reality----in the Ethereal Kingdom of SL, are automatically, subject to the Earthly Law!

No where in the constitution of the United States does it say that it's domain extends into the non-material exsistence of the mind or any virtual realities it creates. Is this a precedent that is happening or what?

So play dead LoL and roll over to Caesar. Rendering your animation unto Caeser.
Give up your pixelated slot machines and start charging tax on purchases of FAKE shots of Jack Daniels---the Liquor Lobby might get upset.

First of all. Being a business SL is subject to applicable business laws of the location. SO MOVE! DUh!!!?

I hear there is some Island land with a Low Tier.

Secondly---Neither LL, nor the governments own anyone's mind or imagination. NEW Laws need to be made that PROTECT virtual realities and collective imaginations.

The old ways, days are numbered anyways.

Next they can put an end to Warcraft (etc.) for Random Armor Drops and the use of random number generators.


/chicken

that will happen the day you take something that = real currency and pay that monster for the random drop

thats what everyone that uses a similar game analogy does not get

YOU DO NOT WALK UP TO A MONSTER IN WOW AND PAY IT MONEY FOR A CHANCE TO WIN MORE MONEY

sl is different becuase we use "tokens" that can be traded in for real cash value, just like poker chips

This essential point seems to go over the heads of some folks, Osgeld.

ive noticed

To alot of Chinese thats big business.





And buying Gold and and Lindens online isn't the same thing as buying potatoes at the market? Or selling potatoes? It's illegal to have a currency other then that of the country's, so clearly, the Linden is not a currency, it's an imaginary potato and people are virtually gambling over imaginary potatoes.

whatever that has to do with anything, go play a Chinese game, and altho i have never been to china, i seriously doubt there is big biz in making some beast eat money on the off chance that a greater return comes out of the other end



except those potatoes CAN BE CONVERTED TO US DOLLARS, if you walked into a store, bought a sack of potatoes and gambled with them, got more potatoes and cashed them back out to $$ before you left it would be the exact same thing

lindens are a token currency, you can pay real money for them and you can trade them back in for real money, again its no different than poker chips

I guess you aren't aware of this. Google search "gold farmers"





Well I guess you aren't aware that people sell potatoes either.

google search "potato farming"

It's very very simple.

One one hand, you pay 10-15 dollars a month to play a game. Go whack a monster over and over and due to a statistic in the game engine get N items that you can then sell for a certain amount of dollars and also M items that you can sell in game for in-game money that can be sold for a certain amount of dollars. this is the gold farmer. He's not gambling because he knows that wacking the monster will bring in a return.

This does not compare to entering a token (worth N dollars) into a game which will then yeild anywhere from 0-M dollars payout following a dice roll, deal of cards, etc, then repeat over and over again. You're gambling because you might bring in no return (or in the case where you can charge for new tokens on credit cards, a negative return).

Another thing is very simple, if SL moved offshore of the US and had gambling, the US government would require them to prevent US citizens from even connecting to SL (much as they have done with many popular online gambling sites). the sites do it because its easier to block the problem and keep it from happening than to have investigators come to seize all your records to look for IP addresses and times. You are bound by the laws of your locality and if your locality does not allow online gambling then you as an indavidial (not the company running the gambling) are breaking the law. But its a lot easier to go to a corporation then to go to hunt down each indavidual user. So, in the case here, it would be easier to make LL block US IP addresses than to try to track down each and every US citizen who logs in and goes to gamble. Is that what you really want?

im aware im tired of arguing with twits over something the labs has no real control over, if you would bother to read instead of looking up potato farmers you would know this came down from the MAN

dont like it? go to the government and try to explain to them how buying produce is the same thing as playing a slot machine

If you bothered to do any reading then you would know that this indeed did not come down by "the MAN" but was a business choice Linden Labs made. If you do just a teeny tiny bit more reading and look up the law in question for yourself, you will also see that SL is excluded from it. But that's too much to ask I guess. *shrugs*

yes it was a decision, (now) 10 gambling addicts on the forums or further investigation by the FBI

and that tiny tidbit law you speak of is riding the line so thin because of the token currency we use it wasnt worth dealing with, considering LL has gigabytes of kiddy porn and god knows what else in their possession

they could have refuted it, but it would be opening Pandora's box, so that "choice" was more survival instinct than anything else

If there were no LindeX, how would you trade your L for cash?

If there were no LindeX exchange on which to trade your L for cash, how would gaming in SL be considered online gambling?

I take offense to being labeled a gambling addict because I chose to take a stance regarding the ban on gaming in this forum. I would certainly not label you a pervert or pedophile for mentioning kiddy porn. It does raise an eyebrow since you specifically mention it and even suggest a qualified amount of it. How could you possibly know that if you hadn't viewed it yourself?

The Uigea is considerably more than a "tiny tidbit law" when the effect of it results in millions of dollars in assets being seized. Ask Neteller, Citadel, or Betonsports if they consider it a tiny tidbit of law.

Neither Neteller nor Citadel had anything to do with online gambling other than the single act of processing USD for others who were doing it.

The undisputed fact remains that if you are unable to trade your L for cash though the LindeX exchange owned and operated by Linden Labs, then neither you nor they are committing a crime under the law.

We get rid of the LindeX and the problem is solved.

If the Lindex were abolished, would that mean Linden's would become an inworld currency only, not redeemable fo real money? (Which wouldn't bother me). Or would this be done through 3rd parties?

It originally was done only through 3rd world parties.

When I joined it was

GOM

IGE

Hank Ramos


Hank's atms kinda faded from the scene.

IGE owned HUGE amounts of Lindens

Lots of people prefered GOM though. It was basically the same as LindenX.

--------------------------------
Linden Labs offered to buy GOM and make it into LindenX

GOM wanted more money than Linden Labs was willing to pay ..

Linden Labs made LindenX anyway and GOM went out of business.

IGE tried to get rid of their lindens becuase it was toohard competing with a built in Broker.

It wasnt until these Trading Limits for new accounts started being limiting (not sure when they were added) that Third Party sites made a comeback.

um you just did and if you will recall it was last months OMFG flamefest

and BTW theres a large difference tween saying someone has a problem and someone is engaged in illegal activity

I like the idea best of abolishing the Lindex ability to sell back Lindens for RL currency.

If you need to get rid of Lindens for RL currency, you can allways sell alt accounts and use other means via ebay. Most other MMORPG's have players selling ingame currency for their particular game all the time on EBay.

Wow, Everquest, ConquerOnLine, and even SL offer sales of currency on EBay.

So those with tons of L$ could allways sell for real money that route.

Otherwise keep L$ as in game money only. Not available for resale for sure, maybe not even for purchase via Lindex.

Whether one subtlely implies [something] or blatantly accuses, it's the same thing in my opinion. The former method is just more sneaky, underhanded and commonly used to "skate the rules" and accomplish the latter without getting into trouble via forum rules, etc. The attitude is pretty much the same in both IMO, both methods cause NEGATIVITY (trouble, discomfort, etc) towards another.

Anyhow, I agree that getting rid of LindeX would solve the problem. Unfortunately, it's about money and realisticly I just can't see LL chunking it for the gamers. :/

I want this explained and elaborated upon. Who SPECIFICALLY are the alleged gambling addicts you speak of and refer to? I'd like to know.

It'd be done through third parties. Our in world banks could easily handle it. I'm betting the WSE could easily handle it as well since they've already got the basic set up for an exchange system.

Then the more obvious choice would be to get rid of the kiddy porn. Gee, ban something based upon an ambigious law that wouldn't hold water in court due to the one item in it stating that service providers are exempt to protect themselves from investigations concerning laws that are very set in stone; or get rid of the stuff which is far beyond illegal and immoral that if investigated, LL would go down in flames?

I'd get rid of the stuff that is so far beyond illegal myself. I'm sure that LL also has that much common sense too.

[q]Originally Posted by Yahoo News
the FBI has been looking at the presence of gambling activity in Second Life and has been analyzing whether, by hosting such activity, the California-based company has been violating federal law[/q]

These original stories came about because of a statement by one of the other Lindens (don't remember which one now) that they had invited the FBI in to look around. Within hours, that statement was refuted by, I believe, Robin. I could be wrong on the 'who' though. By the time it was refuted, it was already headed to press. See how easy it is to start a major news story with a little rumor?

And now, none of us can be sure which was true. The first statement, which wound up going to press, or the latter? Since Robin is still asserting there was no involvement by any government agencies, I'll go with her statements for now. Yeah, could be spin but ultimately, without them talking to us, all we've got to go on right now is spin.

Okay, I just spoke with a "duty agent" in the field office for the FBI in my area. He can find no record of any investigations into SL or the gambling here in SL. Now, he did say that it's possible that an investigation did occur within one of the 66 satelite offices and he just didn't find it in the records.

I believe Robin stating this was not due to any pressure from any governmental agency was truth and not spin.

My main point which obivously is not being realized is that LL is rolling over and playing dead rather then fighting for Virtual Reality freedom tooth and nail. My "land" in SL is not even on earth, much less in the US. It's pixels and apart of my imagination. The police and the FBI have no juristiction in an imaginary world --they only have juristiction when it spills in real life and does violate real life laws.

Lindens are imaginary. Lindens are NOT a currency, if they were, then they would be illegal. Therefore the market exchange within SL is also a fiction.

Would it be illegal for a character in a book or a movie to gamble? Go arrest the actors or the writer. If LoL used some sense they would find a way around this and also make a major case of law. Make the Linden an In game currency and people can take their chances cashing in their "chips," in the real world secondary markets.

At any rate its a whole new area of law, pertaining to the future.

Personally I hate gambling, but I see this action as a copout and a precedent that should be argued all the way to the Supreme Court. Banning casinos in SL is not comparable to banning pedophilia, or threatening behavior, which I fully agree with. Keeping kids out the "mature" areas in Sl, IS the parents and LL's job. Being a currency exchange is not their job.

We all know that 'off-shore" banks etc., are used to hide money and activities involving money that are illegal in most countries. At that level it is up to countries to exert their influence with international law. LL is not in that position and by banning imaginary virtual casinos paying in potatoes is silly. If people are then taking those potatoes and selling them, in the real world, outside of SL, that is not a part of SL.

Like casinos, these SL "stock markets" or "banks," in Sl is also fictional. Were they 'real' they would be illegal, unless officially licensed. What may happen outside of SL is the domain of real world law, but for LL to ban these kinds of things in a virtual world, is limiting harmless imaginative behavior, which is only simulating real world or otherworldy things.

Nice that you "like the idea of abolishing" a source of revenue for Linden Labs. I'm just speculating but I'll go out on a limb and say they aren't as excited about that prospect as you are. Especially if doing so is for the sole reason of allowing illegal casinos to continue in SL.

What is your proposal to Linden Labs to replace the lost revenue your idea has cost them?