Anyone else see this? State of New York investigates Facebook re: young user safety.

While it's correct that SL's situation isn't "on all fours" with the noted article about Facebook, nevertheless it does fall into the same general category -- that is, whether these online meeting places are safe for participation by minors, and if not, what the providers are doing either to (1) exclude minors or (2) protect minors more adequately.

Colette is right that parents want the buck to be passed -- they do not want to regulate their kids, they are too busy to do that, they just wants laws in place to do it for them. But the end result is that as a service like SL grows in profile and popularity, so will the scrutiny, and it's the same general kind of scrutiny -- ie, is this thing safe for my kid, and if it isn't, either make it safe for my kid, or make it inaccessible to my kid.

LL is clearly acting rationally in taking some steps to protect itself in this environment. The steps seem inadequate and perhaps even misguided in some ways. And the trust blog was complete nonsense -- it was almost an insult to intelligence to read it. Nevertheless, LL does have to take care of its own business in this respect for as long as it is running the servers.

"Our process is so easy - even a child could do it."

Computers today are the TV of the 90's ... its the great unpaid baby sitter. I know from FIRST HAND ... what teenagers are like on the internet as IRL im a network manager for 5 schools... I see the emails they send each other... I see the hate mail... the persecution... sights like Bebo, MySpace, Facebook ..... Teenagers really want to enter these places. Teenage boys want to feel like they are sexual men and teenage girls well ...... the least said the better. So places like SL are like moths to a lightbulb. Most "script kiddies" are teenage boys who want to misbehave and to a degree this falls into the griefing catagory...

I doubt LL want to have any input with whats its residents want to do.... but you have to ask yourself . if you want to remain anonymous .. its proberly becasue you dont want people to know what you do in your Second Life ... I understand AND respect that... but if that DOES happen it leaves so many other issues unresolved or answered, I guess its also down to mentality to each nation and how its been indocturned into population beliefs. I stayed off the real life " Grid " for 8 years for certain reasons... yet I have no problem with my identity..... when I pay for something with Pay Pal ... or my Credit Card I have to give my Name and Address.... I might not like it ... but if i want the item I HAVE to do it so I secome to the pressure.. .and that is whati saying to you... if you want to play SL you have to stump up that personal informaion and dont think nipping to WoW or Hipihi is going to help you as systems ARE in place and will follow through. I dont like the George Orwell mentality either but technology has given us a smaller planet...a bigger community and the ability to be anonymous leaves me with a chill down my spine.

I saw on TV last night that in the UK people are submitting themselves to DNA profiling and in quite a few cases that DNA profile has removed subjects for serious crimes due to lack of a match. I know Im proberly standing alone in my view that I think EVERYONE IRL should have some form of identity verification... but i would hazzard a guess that 60% of criminals have at least 3 aliases and proberly most dont even use the name they were born with. Never mind protect the children ..... how about protecting the adults FROM the children.

The reasons LL is blind to the actual cultures in SL, is the same reason many posters are blind to actual cultures in SL.

They dont come to SL for sexual/ relationship things. Many probably even find it funny or stupid.

You hear it echod by people all the time on the Forums how they judge or belittle pixel sex, or feeling their relationship is real.

Well many Lindens are the same as those forums posters. And thats why they dont get it.

If you use a credit card that information is already out there. Credit card companies routinely sell your personal information. Even information that's not directly required for your use of the credit card, like your SSN. The reason why Integrity doesn't really need all those fields filled in to verify people is because they can fill in the empty fields themselves already.

I understand that this is largely true in the USA. It is not true in other parts of the world. This is something that US Americans don'r seem to be able to "get".

I have to say that I'm not hugely concerned about going through the verification process. I'll do it on the basis of supplying minimal information. LL already have full and correct details on my identity. I'm subject to floods of spam and a goodly number of marketing calls in RL already. I can't see this adding to the load in any significant way.

My only real issue with 'verification' is that it does not verify either identity or age.

Absolutely bang on the nail there!
They want in and they will get in.




Point of order.
'You' don't have to stump up 'that personal information'.
If 'you' want access to the restricted content, 'you' only have to stump up information for a John Doe that looks plausible
Therefore 'you' can remain anonymous even though LL and Integrity have somebody's name, address, SSN, or whatever linked to your avatar. 'You' can do this even if you are a minor.








...... Never mind protect the children ..... how about protecting the adults FROM the children.[/QUOTE]

Point taken Sling ...... but theres only SO much that can be done ..... point being LL have to at LEAST make the effort.... or rather be seen to

You would be surprised what information is available about you. I once applied for credit somewhere online and part of the process to verify my identity had me respond to multiple choice questions such as my address 5 years ago and stuff like that. I was quite shocked that they were able to use that information.

I think the other poster was right about Integrity already having the information for the fields that are left blank. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.

One more thought... if you are a US citizen and have ever registered to vote, you can bet that Integrity has all the information they need on you already.
------

To those who say this will not stop the minor from verifying, remember they must steal their parents identity to do so. More than likely their names will not match the records of their parents info.

The kids that get onto the main grid are not naive. Whatever they see i'm sure will not be new to them. However we need to keep them off IMO for two reasons.

The first and most important, protection of the adults on there. We should not have to worry that we are propositioning, having cyber or anything that may be seen as inapropriate with a minor.

The second, we want some where we can go that is without children and just let ourselves go. A sort of release valve.

Where as the teen grid needs to protect the kids from the small minority of adults who may cause them harm.

Unfortunatly I don't think age varification will work, kids will somehow find a way onto the main grid and vice versa. but If it cuts down the number of incidences them i agree to it.

As for the rumours of combining the grids, I hope it doesn't happen. In something as big as that LL should definatly listen to the residents and consider thier opinion.

Facebook as far as I can see is different and I don't know how they can say it is completley safe for kids as it caters for adults as well in the same group.

The name used to create the avatar is not matched to the name used to verify.
The only thing to pass between LL and Integrity is a matchcode.
Even *if* all the information that LL have an an account were to be passed to Integrity, the kid would simply create a new account to match the name of their parent.
Getting around verification is trivial. "Even a child can do it".

Marty has it right. These kids WANT IN!!!!

/me smiles and offers Cherry a piece of pie intead.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I am saying that if they commit identity theft then hopefully the blame for any trouble they get into gets shifted from LL and its customers to the criminal child and its parents.

But if anything this is simply another barrier for them to have to get through which I am happy for. If it cuts the number of minors on the main grid from 25% (don't know that for a fact, just a rumor I heard) down to 10% then hey I am all for it.

I have to agree with you. It might have the effect of stopping some of the timid children. I'm not sure what percentage of the kids on the grid are timid.
Verification IS going to happen. I'm not against the principle of it.

What I'd like to see is a public acceptance from the legislators and the righteous is that WHEN this blows up, then the kids and their parents/guardians are the ones in the firing line.

We are all used to government and corporate marketing lies. This particular lie is very different however. The lie is that it will make the world safer for kids.
I'd like to see some honesty in the matter.

Which is why facebook is now under scrutiny. Hope LL is watching and taking notes.

Under UK law the government can *only* give the database of SSN equivalents to credit reference agencies governed by UK data laws, and the credit agency can *only* use that information for credit checking and cannot give or sell that information to anyone else.

Integrity is not governed by UK (or EU) data laws nor is it a credit reference agency nor is age verification to use SL a credit check, so whilst it may have some SSN equivalents for a few people from the UK its data will be patchy and incomplete at best.

Similar data protection laws apply to passport numbers and driving license numbers and through out the EU.

This is supported by many people verifying through the beta system using little more than name, zipcode and DoB.



Essentially we are really talking about ways of detering minors rather than age verification.

Many minors may be wary about financial theft (e.g. by entering a parents credit card details) especially since they would get found out when their parents receive the statement so that is a reasonably but imperfect deterrent.

On the other hand, I can't see having to enter your parents name, address and DoB (and maybe even passport number) being perceived by them as a deterrent (or criminal act) of equal weight (especially as there is less chance of being found out).

Matthew

which NICELY brings around to the abolition of free accounts

Make sure that even as a non member .. that credit card information is used and verified against a name and address (no more than paypal do ALREADY)
And voila ... kids can only get in IF they lie about thier identity completely and run the risk of parents identifying and finding them out. If however they buy one of those false credit cards .... or maybe go to a forger for the CIA or MI5 or maybe they can hack into the grid and start WW3 ....


ohhhh please *lol* ...
just the basic deternets will stop a large percentage of minor access.... and those that DO get in would have to break the law on so many counts to do so.... imagine this

Parent - Mikey What are you doing
Mikey - errrrrrrrrr nothing
Parent - Why do I have Linden Lab on my CC
Mikey - SHIT!!!!!!
Parent - OMG!!!!!

Bottom line a parent isnt going to come forward becasue their child is accessing inappropriate material on SL if they have had to commit fraud to do it .... are they

You'd be surprised.

I can imagine it now .....

" My child commited a unlawfull act.... fraud...forgery and deception to access an adult site and when he got thier it was full of adult stuff... i wish to complain"

cant see it standing up in court somehow *s*

SSN's maybe. Not passport numbers or driving licences. The big giveaway on this point is that they ask for the last four numbers of a SSN and the full number of passport or driving licence. If they already had that information they'd only need part of the number.

As for the OP, no this isn't the reason LL are using verification. LL in fact are getting themselves into hot water by shrugging their shoulders and saying "Kids are here".

What this should be a wake up call about is the idea that the teen grid should be merged with the main grid, because the situation myspace and facebook are in is because they actively encourage adults and kids to mix.

They also don't tend to prosecute their children if they nick their card and details and open up a casino account then spam their entire month's wages on one game of Roulette ...

Slight exaggeration but same principal.

The main difference between facebook and secondlife is that teens are invited and welcomed to join facebook while they are told they are not allowed on the main grid in sl , if adult predators were on the teen grid it would be a different matter. I think.I still say and have said the best way to keep most teens off the main grid is to require a credit card. Most don't have money or credit cards.

Elinah

I don't think this is true. Porn used the web but it was not responsible for the web taking off. I think of porn using media as the ad cutters of life.

However, erotica or Temple's of Love or the Sacred Prostitute..very cool IMHO.

I personally don't have a problem with age verification, or identity verification for that matter. If they have my credit card number, they already have ways to find out everything else they need. The biggest threat to you as far as identity theft is actually swiping a credit card at a gas pump or MAC machine. As for teens getting their parents information, and just using it to verify themselves, how many parents actually leave their credit cards, social security cards and driver's licenses where their kids can get them? I guess I can only speak for myself in saying that yes, I know teenagers can be pretty slick, but my social security card, etc. aren't kept in my pocketbook where they're easily accessible. My daughter (although not yet a teen, but soon) has no clue where to find that information about me. Maybe as she gets older she'll try to figure it out, but I doubt it. Verification isn't going to make it impossible for under-agers to access the grid, but it will make it a lot more difficult. Some kids will see that as a challenge, and go to whatever lengths they have to to get in, but in that case LL has protected itself by requiring the information in the first place. Other teens...meh...they're not going to bother. Most I know are way too lazy to even make that effort.

That is troubling.


Wasnt google supposed to be working on its own version of second life?


Elinah....