now if the rate hike and reclassification of sims didn't kill ya.. maybe this will.
I ordered a OPENSIM from what I thought was a reputable SIM dealer. I paid full price for the SIM, provided the name for the SIM. I had full estate rights. We built our small humble business and began to get back on our feet, when the Linden decide the change the SIM model and limit us to 20 Avatars. Now this doesn't work for our Business. so we chip in two sims and some more money for the other 1/2 sim. Now we own a full sim. 15k prims. 50 avatar limit. everything is ok. we rebuild our humble business on the new land.
now the owner decides she wants to sell the land. sells it without any notice and refunds some of the tier.
the new owner says. the new tier is this and demands it right away. you have 1hr to decide.
now, is the old sim owner doubledipping and selling the land to you and then selling it to another person?
what rights do you have to sell the land to recoup your costs?
what about the intelectual property rights of the SIM name?
do the tenants get sold with the land with no input or rights?
my contract was with the first estate manager.
does the estate manager have to refund the cost of the SIM we paid for since she broke the contract?
let me hear your thoughts.
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Willard Writer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 5
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03-09-2009 12:59
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HoneyBear Lilliehook
Owner, The Mall at Cherry
Join date: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 4,500
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03-09-2009 13:03
Unless you order your sims from Linden Lab, you are taking a huge risk. In this particular instance....sounds like you're pretty well screwed.
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Destiny Niles
Registered User
Join date: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 949
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03-09-2009 13:04
What do your contract say about refunds? If it's mute on the subject you have no rights. But it's the nice thing to do.
As far as the new owner goes, you don't owe them a thing. Don't pay and leave them with the tier payment to come out of their pocket. The Sim name is an interesting question and I would like to hear what others think about that. |
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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03-09-2009 13:08
Unless you order your sims from Linden Lab, you are taking a huge risk. In this particular instance....sounds like you're pretty well screwed. QFT Perhaps others can fill me in. why do people "buy" these sublet lands? I mean, I know there are some models that are successes (Caledon and New Babbage come to mind. Do you own your land there, or is it rented?), but it seems f'r every positive experience I hear, 10 more tell of woes. _____________________
 "There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world  " - Prospero Linden |
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Malia Writer
Unemployed in paradise
Join date: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2,026
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03-09-2009 13:14
it seems f'r every positive experience I hear, 10 more tell of woes.  _____________________
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
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03-09-2009 14:03
see my post at /327/e9/310537/4.html#post2347804
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It's still My World and My Imagination! So there.
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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03-09-2009 14:09
I posted my reply in the other thread...but i will paste here too.
Hi Willard -Yes, selling land on Estates is common practice. I would not call it owning as the Estate owner can swipe it anytime....but i would not call it renting either, as by purchasing the land you have the right to sell that land at either a profit or at a loss. I prefer to call it "leasing"....which kind of sits in the middle of ownership and renting terminlogies. I'm not sure how much you spent on the "purchase fees", i would be very pissed that the Estateowner did not give me some compensation.....very pissed. Also, if you had your business there...the Estateowner has effectively damaged your business. It can take an age to work your way up the ladder in All search through optimisation...and then all those LM's that have been distributed, or people carrying your Business in their picks.....the short term financial loss in sales to your business could be even bigger than the loss of your "purchase fee".....man would i be pissed, doubley pissed, treblely pissed....man that Estateowner should never log into SL at all, for his own safety!! "Estateowner" meaning the 1st Estate owner lol- managed to detect who previous Estateowner was.....yes, regular poster on RA. There's always traces left behind! |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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03-09-2009 14:09
QFT Perhaps others can fill me in. why do people "buy" these sublet lands? I mean, I know there are some models that are successes (Caledon and New Babbage come to mind. Do you own your land there, or is it rented?), but it seems f'r every positive experience I hear, 10 more tell of woes. In theory it should be the better business model, the owner recoups their USD$ purchase quicker which should lead to more financial stability. Seems it doesn't always work that way because people don't have patience but if someone isn't coping when selling with upfront fees then goodness knows how they'd have got on with a straight rental deal. |
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HoneyBear Lilliehook
Owner, The Mall at Cherry
Join date: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 4,500
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03-09-2009 14:10
In theory it should be the better business model, the owner recoups their USD$ purchase quicker which should lead to more financial stability. Seems it doesn't always work that way because people don't have patience but if someone isn't coping when selling with upfront fees then goodness knows how they'd have got on with a straight rental deal. hehe...maybe I should have sold space on CP after all, Ciaran _____________________
Virtual Freebies now has its own domain!
URL=http://virtualfreebiesblog.com The Mall at Cherry Park - new vendors, new look! |
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-09-2009 14:25
It's kinda weird that the new owner is being a dick. It ain't easy to fill a sim with renters. Whenever I buy a sim (only bought two batches, but both times) I bend over backwards to keep the existing renters because they're going to help me limp along until I can fill the sim with more profitable residents.
Of course I can understand the old owner's position. Probably got fed up with losing money on a sim and realised land barony wasn't for them. Better to just slip out the backdoor and let things sort themselves out. _____________________
Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56).
Also, we pay L$0.15/sqm/week for tier donated to our group and we rent pure tier to your group for L$0.25/sqm/week. Free L$ for Everyone - http://ninjaland.net/tools/search-scumming/ |
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sable Valentine
AU United
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,275
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03-09-2009 14:26
What do your contract say about refunds? If it's mute on the subject you have no rights. But it's the nice thing to do. As far as the new owner goes, you don't owe them a thing. Don't pay and leave them with the tier payment to come out of their pocket. The Sim name is an interesting question and I would like to hear what others think about that. Destiny, that is why Will and I left. However they are using the sim name that Will paid for and it is definitely associated with our now defunct business. I too am interested what others thoughts are regarding the queston on the Sim name. _____________________
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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03-09-2009 14:27
I want to make something clear: you don't have an agreement with an estate manager. You have an agreement with the owner of the sim, who is represented by the estate manager. Unless that EM has their own subletting operation, you shouldn't have any contract with any estate manager.
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sable Valentine
AU United
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,275
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03-09-2009 14:29
I want to make something clear: you don't have an agreement with an estate manager. You have an agreement with the owner of the sim, who is represented by the estate manager. Unless that EM has their own subletting operation, you shouldn't have any contract with any estate manager. Cristalle, our agreement was with the sim owner. PERIOD. _____________________
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Jezebella Desmoulins
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 561
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03-09-2009 14:31
Leasing a private island in SL (yes, leasing, because unless you got it from LL, you haven't "bought" anything) is the ultimate game of "You pays your money and you takes your chances."
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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03-09-2009 15:07
The SIM now has a purchase price of 25000 L . New SIM owner could have extended your lease...but guess he wants the 350 USD instead.....this SIM might lay there empty for awhile....might even mean he has to pay the next tier whilst it remains empty. Amazing where greed leads to.
FULL PRIM SIM FOR SALE 15000 PRIMS- TIER 92000$L PER MONTH WITH FULL ESTATE MANAGEMENT RIGHTS, drop me a note card if you have any questions landland ansar |
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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03-09-2009 15:41
Perhaps others can fill me in. why do people "buy" these sublet lands? I mean, I know there are some models that are successes (Caledon and New Babbage come to mind. Do you own your land there, or is it rented?), but it seems f'r every positive experience I hear, 10 more tell of woes. The Caledon Covenant makes it very clear that "buying" in Caledon is not like buying in the real world, and what the limits and risks are. "Buying" or "renting"? The term 'buy' is misleading simply because all estate owners have a 'reclaim parcel' ability. But I do try to make the Caledon experience as close to ownership as I possibly can. So far, for nearly three years, hundreds of tenants and across roughly three million square meters of land, I have yet to reclaim any parcel from anyone, save for nonpayment. There is a one-time fee up front, often associated with the 'buy land' feature. "Buying" the property is not enough, you have to 'pay tier' to a parcel meter using $L. The 'address prim' with the lot number in Caledon lamp posts is the parcel meter in most cases. Please contact me (Desmond Shang) so the parcel meter may be unlocked and the parcel deeded to a group of yours. You may keep it in your name if you like. Failing to notify me promptly will result in losing the property without refund. Regarding Region Transfers/Dissolution As mentioned above, the State of Caledon does not offer refunds of any kind. While you may transfer land rights for $L to other people, and I am willing to assist in said transfers, I make no guarantee that anyone (including myself!) will be able to recover value from land in the State of Caledon. Should entire regions ever have to go, I'll do my best to relocate remaining residents to existing regions with comparable properties. The bottom line is that if Caledon fails I won't be able to refund anything anyway. Even ten regions at a mere $L 4 per meter adds up to about ten thousand dollars of land, and Caledon is well past ten regions. If anyone ever says they will back up land value in a disaster, do the math, and then determine if they really would (or could) when there is insufficient income to maintain monthly, multi-thousand dollar tier charges. I limit the parcel meters to a 12 week horizon, and normally maintain 12 week's worth of tier payments at zero % occupancy in advance, to ensure that I limit everyone's liability and we all have time to react to adverse market conditions. It's the best I can do, in this brave new world where online worlds come and go for reasons I'll never be privy to. Honesty and honour dictates that I do not make financial promises that I may not be able to keep. _____________________
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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03-09-2009 16:12
Destiny, that is why Will and I left. However they are using the sim name that Will paid for and it is definitely associated with our now defunct business. I too am interested what others thoughts are regarding the queston on the Sim name. That's a nasty one... hrm. My guess is that unless there's extreme hostility, the cost of a rename (50 USD) is the maximum amount of financial damage you might suffer. Still, really really annoying. If there was a way to salvage the relationship with the new owner, it might be worth considering. They will quickly discover that people will buy their own full sim for a few hundred bucks on the used market; maybe it's possible to 'sell' one and still retain ownership, but... I dunno. The grid is losing regions left and right these days. _____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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03-09-2009 16:15
The grid is losing regions left and right these days. as sad as i am about losing creative sims, it poses the possibility of land prices rising again with mass relocations taking place... sorry this happened to you, Willard. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
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sable Valentine
AU United
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,275
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Not a chance, he refuses rollback so we can get our stuff
03-09-2009 18:09
That's a nasty one... hrm. My guess is that unless there's extreme hostility, the cost of a rename (50 USD) is the maximum amount of financial damage you might suffer. Still, really really annoying. If there was a way to salvage the relationship with the new owner, it might be worth considering. They will quickly discover that people will buy their own full sim for a few hundred bucks on the used market; maybe it's possible to 'sell' one and still retain ownership, but... I dunno. The grid is losing regions left and right these days. That is really not a possibility now. LL moved the sim with our items on it to a new location and we did not know about it till after the fact. In the process everything on there including our tenant's were LOST. The current owner refuses to request a rollback from LL. I believe we are really stuck. We lost our beloved sim, business, home and furnishings. _____________________
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Incanus Merlin
Not User Serviceable
Join date: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 583
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03-09-2009 18:37
That is really not a possibility now. LL moved the sim with our items on it to a new location and we did not know about it till after the fact. In the process everything on there including our tenant's. The current owner refuses to request a rollback from LL. I believe we are really stuck. We lost our beloved sim, business, home and furnishings. sable, have you tried requesting a rollback yourself to retrieve your items? I know it might not work, but it's worth a shot Inc _____________________
"The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourself in, but you cannot for ever fence it out" - Gildor Inglorion, LOTR
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sable Valentine
AU United
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,275
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03-09-2009 18:45
sable, have you tried requesting a rollback yourself to retrieve your items? I know it might not work, but it's worth a shot Inc Yes, I just put in a support ticket an will see what happens. We really appreciate everyone's kind comments and suggestions. Thank you All so much. _____________________
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Willard Writer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 5
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great feedback everyone
03-10-2009 12:44
looking at all this just says to me, most people have good intentions, but there are a few people that try to get ahead by abusing the system. Yes, estate owners may have the ultimate say in what happens to their land, but abusing the power given to them is not very responsible. These irresponsible land barons must learn to deal with their issues better and only after exhaustive communications with all the parties involved, resort to using the power to resolve a issue.
It's my view that I and not a commodity to be sold off with a piece of land. Since, the contract was between us and estate owner. The estate owner canceled our contact by selling the land to another party. The estate owner owes us for the purchase price of land we invested in. We could also say she owes us for the damages to our business and the recovery of our business name that was on the SIM. It been a few days now and I have not heard from the estate owner. It may be obvious that this estate owner is not willing to talk about or resolve these issues. |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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03-10-2009 12:52
Perhaps others can fill me in. why do people "buy" these sublet lands? I mean, I know there are some models that are successes (Caledon and New Babbage come to mind. Do you own your land there, or is it rented?), but it seems f'r every positive experience I hear, 10 more tell of woes. Where is the easy-to-access, authoritative source of information that warns residents that "buying" in Second Life doesn't have the same meaning as "buying" in real life? That "owning" in Second Life does not have the same meaning as "owning" in real life? That "covenant" in Second Life doesn't have the same meaning as "covenant" in real life? That is why the scams continue to happen. |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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03-11-2009 02:57
Yet another of the many uses for infinite unverified free alt accounts, I suspect the new owner and the old were the same RL person, either that or the new owner was led to belieeve he was buying a sim with a permanent tennant.
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Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
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Harmony Levee
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2008
Posts: 189
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03-11-2009 04:33
Unless you order your sims from Linden Lab, you are taking a huge risk. In this particular instance....sounds like you're pretty well screwed. Pretty much says it all. There are very reputable land dealers out there but pretty far and wide inbetween. the ones I have always dealt with deal with mainland and private and they've been in the game since early on. But even then as much as I trust them, not being mainland I will purchase from time to time, its a risk. Where is the easy-to-access, authoritative source of information that warns residents that "buying" in Second Life doesn't have the same meaning as "buying" in real life? That "owning" in Second Life does not have the same meaning as "owning" in real life? That "covenant" in Second Life doesn't have the same meaning as "covenant" in real life? That is why the scams continue to happen. Not trying to stir anything but it's a game so that should be known from the get go more or less. |