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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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10-06-2007 07:07
As spoken by Winston Smith in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four I think every new Linden has to memorize this before they get their first paycheck. I was just about to say that quote I loved the book! Nice choice of quotes!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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10-06-2007 07:21
...(Directly. This Blue's Clues is bs) _____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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Govindira Galatea
Just ghosting...
Join date: 6 Mar 2004
Posts: 416
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10-06-2007 07:52
- "[...]Linden: I'm not able to be specific, but I can say that using terms like "lolita", "pre-teen", "toddler" on your vendors is the most obvious trouble." If I had things in my vendors that used terms like those above, I could certainly find and eliminate such material. If I disagreed about the offensiveness and wished to fight over it, it would also be clear about what I was fighting. To be sure, I could remove the material, get inspected and if I passed the inspection, restore the material and plan to begin my fight knowing in detail about what I was fighting. I'm afraid that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of this stuff being sold, but if the subject of the Linden's conversation wishes to fight for the right to use terms like "Lolita," "pre-teen," and "toddler" in vendors and believes that s/he is in compliance with TOS, it is her/his right. [/INDENT] _____________________
"A person who talks fast often says things she hasn't thought of yet." "The Creator has a Master Plan: Peace and Happiness through all the Land." |
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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10-06-2007 08:11
Also, another thing I take from it is that it could be something that would seem innocent by itself but is located next to something rather suggestive. Back to the drawing board....  |
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Soen Eber
Registered User
Join date: 3 Aug 2006
Posts: 428
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10-06-2007 08:11
As spoken by Winston Smith in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four ... Why are you bringing in American Electoral politics to this discussion?  For those who are saying "I don't believe this person", they have not read the comments section in the original link. This apparently isn't an isolated incident with abuse staff, but an ongoing behavior. There has long been a record of high-handedness with Linden Labs, probably because they "just don't want to deal with it" and have not invested properly in managerial procedures to resolve issues. For my own part, I have only had [mostly] good interactions with Lindens and the abuse staff. I did go to a meeting once with an off-topic agenda and was properly told "this isn't the venue for asking about that" - no biggie. I social engineered the question to raise maximal red flags and it must have stuck, since the issue was quickly resolved. Let me turn this into a question so the thread doesn't get locked: When you are dealing with a Linden and think they are being unfair, high-handed, or just not listening, what recourse do you have? Also, is it within TOS to post a conversation with a Linden? |
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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10-06-2007 08:39
If this issue was true, then the scary about a PG SL is soon to be here. But that i highly doubt wil come anytimes soon. Jan 2008 well tell all if any major changes are to ocurre . Mean times pieces like this are just more LLABS ...................never mind I don`t by any of this.
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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10-06-2007 08:55
Why are you bringing in American Electoral politics to this discussion? For those who are saying "I don't believe this person", they have not read the comments section in the original link. This apparently isn't an isolated incident with abuse staff, but an ongoing behavior. There has long been a record of high-handedness with Linden Labs, probably because they "just don't want to deal with it" and have not invested properly in managerial procedures to resolve issues. For my own part, I have only had [mostly] good interactions with Lindens and the abuse staff. I did go to a meeting once with an off-topic agenda and was properly told "this isn't the venue for asking about that" - no biggie. I social engineered the question to raise maximal red flags and it must have stuck, since the issue was quickly resolved. Let me turn this into a question so the thread doesn't get locked: When you are dealing with a Linden and think they are being unfair, high-handed, or just not listening, what recourse do you have? Also, is it within TOS to post a conversation with a Linden? Umm, excuse me, but George Orwell was British, not American, and his book 1984 was about European communism and also totalitarian thinking in general, neither of which had anything to do with American politics then or now. And the quote appears to apply quite aptly to some of the behaviors we have seen from some of the Lindens. That said, main point well taken: LL needs to clean up its act. It sometimes seems as though they are used to dealing with balky software and computer systems, and forget that dealing with actual human beings is different. Maybe a little socialization is in order at LL? BTW, do we know why some Lindens apparently make a practice of not telling people what object of theirs they find offensive? Not so much Orwellian, seems to me, as Kafka-esque. (And no, Kafka was also European and this reference is not about American politics, either.) |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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10-06-2007 09:14
Hey, Har stole my Kafka theory. I think LL's abysmal Business/Cutomer Service/Communications Practices will be the downfall of SL unless the do a quick turnaround Personally ,I don't have a lot of confidence they will.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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10-06-2007 09:35
Hey, Har stole my Kafka theory. I think LL's abysmal Business/Cutomer Service/Communications Practices will be the downfall of SL unless the do a quick turnaround Personally ,I don't have a lot of confidence they will. There has long been a record of high-handedness with Linden Labs, probably because they "just don't want to deal with it" and have not invested properly in managerial procedures to resolve issues. By the way, despite the loose connection to 1984, there is a strong connection to American politics. This is our pattern of lawmaking. Something repulsive gets in the news, and our lawmakers make a kneejerk legislation to show us all that they are on top of it. Unintended consequences be damned. In this way, a law is passed that infringes on our freedoms, but doesn't actually accomplish anything. (Patriot Act, FISA expansion, Terri Shiavo, 700 miles of border fencing that can be defeated with a pair of wire cutters) It is actually quite similar, if you look at it from the right persective. But, thats another topic. Sorry. _____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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10-06-2007 09:48
You're pretty smart for a kid. yes they are going to HAVE to do it. SL is no longer the idealistic social/arts experiment. It's a business. And it's growing. They have to take that stupid TAO and put it aside and get the place in order or it will be all be gone.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Jig Chippewa
Fine Young Cannibal
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,150
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10-06-2007 09:56
Errrr ... meanwhile the log-in isn't working. Maybe before Linden work on banning and we all get in snits and discuss dystopian literature, we apply more pressure to actually GETTING on-line (which I know is NOT basis of this discussion) but just remember they can't ban what isnt there coz we cant do the stuff they wanna ban ... okay I get my coffee now.
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Fine Young Cannibal
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
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10-06-2007 10:15
Is there an Apathia Linden? . . .
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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10-06-2007 10:17
Is there an Apathia Linden? . . . Thats every Linden's Middle name |
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Brodsky Zapedzki
Registered User
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 337
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10-06-2007 10:49
Umm, excuse me, but George Orwell was British, not American, and his book 1984 was about European communism and also totalitarian thinking in general, neither of which had anything to do with American politics then or now. Umm, no that was Animal Farm. |
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Jig Chippewa
Fine Young Cannibal
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,150
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10-06-2007 11:02
Maybe this SL thing is just one person's idea of an experiment. Every time our cages get rattled we react. Read "To Your Scattered Bodies Go" and rest of Riverworld trilogy by Jose Philip Farmer.
We can read too, Lindens - and we dont need to be Profs. of Literature or be accredited to some fossilized institution to be credible critics of this "social experiment". _____________________
Fine Young Cannibal
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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10-06-2007 11:38
What amazes me are the reactions inside of this thread, and the comments "over there" to such a poorly written, unsubstantiated piece of garbage. Nobody, except the parties directly involved, have enough facts in this case to come to any reasonable conclusion. "oh, but I have the notecard. You'll have to trust me on this." Yeah, right. And I have a notecard written by Philip Linden himself that says I'll get $L500 for every IM I forward to all my friends and group colleagues.
Maybe this SL thing is just one person's idea of an experiment. Every time our cages get rattled we react. _____________________
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. |
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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10-06-2007 12:06
I can vouch for the truth in what's in that article. I have a copy of the notecard, but will NOT be distributing it. I know this because I believe I was indirectly responsible for Tateru's obtaining it. The person being mentioned has attracted a rather sizable army of anti-expressionist griefers, and has been targeted before. To prevent further hate, I will not be giving the name. However, I -will- paste this line from it, as it is a Linden himself saying something different than what was widely known: "[...]Linden: There's no exception for "in private", "non-public", "hard to find", etc." And I count at least four instances of the person asking the Linden DIRECTLY what the offending objects were. These were the responses: - "[...]Linden: I'm not able to be specific, but I can say that using terms like "lolita", "pre-teen", "toddler" on your vendors is the most obvious trouble." - "[...]Linden: Well, we're not clearing out the parcel *yet*, but in a day or less we will re-visit the reported areas; a suspension may result if the "broadly offensive" content is still present." - "[...]Linden: You must adjust the objects and textures on your parcel to be in compliance with the Community Standards. "Linden Lab chooses not to allow the advertising or promotion of age play or related activities in any public forum -- including in-world textures, classified ads, the Second Life forums, or parcel descriptions. Advertisements, promotions, or descriptions of such activities must be removed to avoid account sanctions. " We cannot choose for you." - "[...]Linden: It's pretty clear there are multiple objects which cause trouble. It is true that having one thing near another thing can make a "suggestive situation"." And then, after repeatedly denying to adress exactly WHAT was in violation: "[...]Linden: We will have someone check on the reported areas in a day or so. Make sure they are in compliance." Umm, hello? How can this person be in compliance when WHAT WAS OFFENDING WASN'T STATED?! "[...]Linden: That's not the issue, we've looked at the parcel." Fine, then YOU bunch know what's offending. TELL THIS PERSON ALREADY SO THEY CAN COMPLY! This is why the article was written. I have chosen to omit the Linden's first name, but depending on what is said later, and what happens, I may well change my mind.... I'd say the nature of the Violation was fairly Specificly Named, even if the lindens didn't point to sprcific articles and say, "Remove this, this, and this". This Phrase from the Lindens pertty much says all it needs to. - "[...]Linden: I'm not able to be specific, but I can say that using terms like "lolita", "pre-teen", "toddler" on your vendors is the most obvious trouble." - "[...]Linden: You must adjust the objects and textures on your parcel to be in compliance with the Community Standards. "Linden Lab chooses not to allow the advertising or promotion of age play or related activities in any public forum -- including in-world textures, classified ads, the Second Life forums, or parcel descriptions. Advertisements, promotions, or descriptions of such activities must be removed to avoid account sanctions. " We cannot choose for you." The person to whom the lindens attentions, it seems to me, was being what is called "Willfully Obtuse" ie; Misunderstanding the intent deliberately. Unless EVERY Item on his property, or NO items on his property Conform to either of these descriptions offered to him By the lindens, he should have NO trouble what-so-ever in Complying. The Property owners tactic never work, and the Lindens WILL Clear his sim, and ban him, and Rightfully so. As for the Original article the OP Linked to, I agree that it was a Very poorly laid out presentation. One guy said this, then another guy said that, but no proof, no specifics, No corroboration, Nothing. I've heard Better stories passed between 8 year olds in a schoolyard. Angel. |
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Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
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10-06-2007 12:18
Angel hit it on the head.
The article (and I don't know the original writer) is poorly written, very fragmented and has no substantiation. I also have no clue where the writer is getting the idea that there is a set of rules not published based on this incident. What was quoted was correct and can be found easily on the pages. Secondly, the Linden said "not able", and that's a plethora of things. To me, based on the surrounding context of the words written, it to me meant that they personally cannot point and wait and scroll through vendors or go through each and every single article that person may have for sale. "Not able" doesn't automatically mean "I can't tell you because I'm not allowed". That's taking that line to the extreme. I also take what they said to mean that this "someone" posted up something with one of the terms mentioned. If you own it, or are responsible for that (such as a mall owner) it's your job to know where that is. I think this article was blown out of proportion, taken WAY out of context and in the end, resulted in some people who have no idea how to read properly getting in an uproar. _____________________
A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer. - Mitch Hedburg
I saw a commercial for an above-ground pool. It was thirty seconds long. You know why? Because that's the maximum amount of time you can depict yourself having fun in an above-ground pool - M.H. You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later. - M.H. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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10-06-2007 12:22
Umm, no that was Animal Farm. Animal Farm was more of a commentary on Soviet Communism, with direct parallels between characters in the book and players in Soviet Russia. _____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart “Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind” Douglas MacArthur FULL |
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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10-06-2007 14:16
Umm, no that was Animal Farm. Ummm, both 1984 and Animal Farm were broadly about totalitarianism (Chris is right; Animal Fram was focused on Soviet Communism, which is a subset). Both great books. You should read them. Also see the movies, if they're available on DVD. If that doesn't turn you into a libertarian, nothing will, and is a major indicator that lobotomy is called for. |
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errUh Oh
Registered User
Join date: 1 Mar 2007
Posts: 233
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10-06-2007 14:17
no you are just jumping to conclusions and making assumptions based on nothing. i hafta say im disappointed by some of your reactions here. its obvious harrassment and you dont care. altho i wasnt involved in the specific im convo when it occured between the Linden and the resident, i have first hand knowlege of that specific Linden lurking on the road next to the property the very next day, which by itself backs up the convo that was passed on the notecard. Moreover, the resident who was harrassed basically cleared the parcel, unable to decide what was in violation. i saw that first hand as well. and, if its all a prank then its incredibly elaborate, considering how much distress the resident was expressing.
And youre also wrong that making general statements like clean up your parcel are appropriate in any situation without specifically mentioning what the violation is. in fact, in this case, i honestly couldnt see ANYTHING at all on the parcel that would be a violation. if it had been my property, i wouldnt have known what to remove either because there was nothing questionable to remove in the first place. and the Linden involved was that VAGUE. no sorry this line of reasoning im hearing from some of you doesnt make any sense at all. This is very typical behavior from Linden Labs and they need to do better then this. They also need to stop harrassing their own customers. and they need to apologize. |
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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10-06-2007 14:23
- "[...]Linden: I'm not able to be specific, but I can say that using terms like "lolita", "pre-teen", "toddler" on your vendors is the most obvious trouble." First off, I would love to know more. Secondly, does it disturb anyone dat a word like "toddler" would be "obvious trouble?" I'd really like more context, really. Mari _____________________
 "There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world  " - Prospero Linden |
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Derevaun Debevec
Caution: frequent stops
Join date: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 67
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10-06-2007 15:31
First off, I would love to know more. Secondly, does it disturb anyone dat a word like "toddler" would be "obvious trouble?" I'd really like more context, really. Mari I agree that more context is needed to conclude much--including, for example, who has been banned. However, the word "toddler" in the same context as the word "lolita" does indeed sound like obvious trouble. In fact, in that context it sounds to me like "pedophilia." What little details have been presented seem to me enough to suspect the resident is manipulating public distrust of LL to cover sexual ageplay. More unbiased details could change that, I suppose. |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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10-06-2007 15:59
Spot on.
What little details have been presented seem to me enough to suspect the resident is manipulating public distrust of LL to cover sexual ageplay. More unbiased details could change that, I suppose. _____________________
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. |
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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10-06-2007 16:00
However, the word "toddler" in the same context as the word "lolita" does indeed sound like obvious trouble. In fact, in that context it sounds to me like "pedophilia." Understood. The difficulty comes with how the term "Lolita" has shifted, in particular with Japanese fashion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita_fashion So yes - more context would be much better. Mari _____________________
"There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world " - Prospero Linden |