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VAT Clarification and Extension

Denise Bonetto
Registered User
Join date: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 705
10-07-2007 00:04
From: Dallas Seaton
Frankly, I think its time the EU gets off its high-horse and realizes that in an internet-based, global economy, they have no legal right to dictate to EVERY SINGLE COMPANY in the ENTIRE WORLD that has a website which offers things for sale, exactly HOW that website MUST present its prices! In this day and age of the internet, websites for businesses based all over the world are available at the click of a mouse to EU residents, and that's a good thing. But what gives the EU the right to then dictate to that foreign business how it displays its prices on its webpage? Particularly for a company selling things which are delivered entirely electronically via the web so that no shipping is required, anyone with a credit card or other valid payment method can purchase and take delivery of assets offered by companies anywhere in the world.

I strongly believe that the EU has NO RIGHT to dictate that a non-EU website list its sale prices including VAT, thereby forcing all of us non-EU residents (including those in the country where the business is located) to do extra math and calculate what OUR price is after deducting the VAT that the EU supposedly dictates must be built into the displayed prices. NONSENSE! And, what's the penalty to a non-EU company and just HOW does the omnipotent EU propose to enforce and collect that penalty??

If I, as a U.S. citizen, decide to purchase things from an EU-based company via their website, then I have to understand that I need to deduct VAT from the displayed prices, as I'm not obligated to pay the VAT that the EU demands "be included in displayed prices" on those websites. By the same argument, an EU resident who decides to purchase from a U.S. based website (such as Linden Lab) should understand that they may well need to ADD VAT to the displayed prices, as its the custom where THAT website originates to display prices "pre-tax" to THEIR local consumer base.

Is there some reasonable compromise? Yes, I think Colette's idea is good. Leave the displayed prices as is, that is without taxes, but put a small asterisk next to them, which leads to a footnote about EU VAT and a link to a page with multiple tables, country by country for our EU friends who don't wish to be bothered with calculating the VAT themselves, but would prefer to have it "hidden" (which is a proven psychological ruse to pacify taxpayers and minimize resistance to the tax in the first place.)



Well LL have an office in the UK, the same office that deals with all payments, so they aren't just an American company. As for how do they collect the penalty, pretty easy from the Brighton office.

Do you really think it's fair that a high percentage of new customers coming and looking at the price lists and decide what they can afford to buy, then get stung with between an extra 15% and 25%?

Why would it be so difficult for American customers to see a note alongside the prices about VAT in the EU?

As for the comment about every single website having to conform to EU pricing, it would only be those that are registered for EU VAT, so if they either have European offices or made a choice to VAT register, then it isn't asking much to put the VAT on their websites.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-07-2007 04:02
From: Dallas Seaton

I strongly believe that the EU has NO RIGHT to dictate that a non-EU website list its sale prices including VAT, thereby forcing all of us non-EU residents (including those in the country where the business is located) to do extra math and calculate what OUR price is after deducting the VAT that the EU supposedly dictates must be built into the displayed prices. NONSENSE! And, what's the penalty to a non-EU company and just HOW does the omnipotent EU propose to enforce and collect that penalty??



They don't have the right. However LL have chosen to register for VAT. Therefore it's sensible for them to observe such directives about pricing. A company that doesn't choose to register for VAT, could rightly decide not to follow such a directive.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-07-2007 04:07
From: Dallas Seaton
Horse-pucky! If I, as a non-European, have a small website which offers things for sale and a European chooses to buy from me, the EU has no legal authority to force me as a non-European, to familiarize myself with everything about the EU tax laws, and take the time and effort to collect their taxes and remit them. If they can make it happen themselves via the customs office, great. If its electronically delivered goods and they can't - so sorry, not my problem.


The person you were replying to was talking about physical items, customs will pass the bill on to the person receiving the item before delivering it. I'd imagine the same goes for the US where import duties are charged.

I've also read elsewhere that in some cases Europeans should include in their pricing taxes and delivery costs when selling to Americans so that local America businesses can compete, so this isn't a one way street.

In case of a small business, the chances are your sales will be below the threshold where VAT is applicable anyway.
Victorria Paine
Sleepless in Wherever
Join date: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,110
10-07-2007 04:45
From: Ciaran Laval

I've also read elsewhere that in some cases Europeans should include in their pricing taxes and delivery costs when selling to Americans so that local America businesses can compete, so this isn't a one way street.


Interesting but it doesn't make much sense, because interstate transactions in the US are also not subject to sales tax, and there isn't really an uproar in the business community here about that.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-07-2007 05:04
From: Victorria Paine
Interesting but it doesn't make much sense, because interstate transactions in the US are also not subject to sales tax, and there isn't really an uproar in the business community here about that.


I'd imagine it's more to do with import duties and delivery costs. Tobacco and Alcohol are the subject of federal tax I believe. We're in danger of going way off topic here ;)
Dallas Seaton
SIMchantment Islands
Join date: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 57
10-08-2007 09:39
From: Denise Bonetto
Well LL have an office in the UK, the same office that deals with all payments, so they aren't just an American company. As for how do they collect the penalty, pretty easy from the Brighton office.

Yes, I understand that if a company, such as LL, chooses to open an office there, then the local authorities have much more authority over the company. I was speaking in generalities, since the internet makes it possible for EU residents to buy from *any* website.

From: Denise Bonetto
Do you really think it's fair that a high percentage of new customers coming and looking at the price lists and decide what they can afford to buy, then get stung with between an extra 15% and 25%?

I think its up to an *intelligent* consumer to figure that out, and yes I think its fair. I have to pay 7.25% sales tax in the state and city in which I live. Gee, is it "fair" that I have to mentally add that in to determine how much money in total its going to cost me? Actually, I think its VERY fair, as it keeps the tax amounts very visible in the consumer's mind, and doesn't let the government pull the "out of sight, out of mind" trick the way they can in the EU.

From: Denise Bonetto
Why would it be so difficult for American customers to see a note alongside the prices about VAT in the EU?

I think I already said that I think that an asterisk next to the prices, leading to a footnote with a link about EU "VAT included" prices is a good compromise. Isn't that about what you are suggesting?

On a related note, just HOW does a website conform with the (in my opinion) silly demand that displayed prices be with VAT included? Since each country in the EU charges a different amount of VAT, what price should the company try to display, in order to try to keep the same amount of money for themselves on each sale? Should each "displayed price" end up being a table of prices for every single EU country? Ridiculous - I'd much rather know how much the COMPANY is charging for their goods, AND how much TAX the government is adding on - which the EU "laws" makes almost impossible, if they require prices to be displayed with VAT included. Knowing the base price, and then the amount of tax added, makes us much more informed consumers, in my humble opinion.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
10-08-2007 09:52
From: Ciaran Laval
I'd imagine it's more to do with import duties and delivery costs. Tobacco and Alcohol are the subject of federal tax I believe. We're in danger of going way off topic here ;)


In the US Tobacco and Alcohol are taxed Heavily with excise taxes, basically "Sin" taxes. Taxes that are put in place that are supposed to be prohibitively high to reduce their use.

Considering that the US has Huge Alcohol and Tobacco Industries even compared to our population, these two things should be very cheap here. As it is, they aren't because of the taxes.
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