Can we trust SL banks? PLEASE READ IT
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Gadosilver Crimson
Registered User
Join date: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 4
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12-19-2007 06:45
I want to post this message as a disappointment to the linden lab policy system and about his report abuse (the famous "big 6"  . The lindens explicit write that they will not take action against money thief or other business fraud. Few days ago a bank system (the LZ Bank owned by Letum Zuma) has been closed and all the accounts has been lose. The owner send to the customer a note card explaining the reasons of the incident. The message say that the ATM due to a hacker attack went down a so all the accounts with the transactions are lose and he can't give back the money. The fact that a bank can lose all the records of their customer is ridiculous, the other fact is that the tracks aren't lose at all. If you log in via browser and look at the money transactions it clearly show that a member pay this guy through his ATM (there are date, hour, transaction number,how much you pay, everything....), it should be a sufficient prof to ask the lindens to take action. If you send any messages to this guy he won't give any answers. I meet just yesterday with others members that lose money as well and they say that even before this happen it was not possible to withdrawal money from ATM, when a panel near it clearly say that was possible to do it every day. Naturally people ask him what's wrong and naturally no answers were sent by him. So, what this does mean? Can I open a bank, attract people with daily interest, take the money without give them back and be unpunished? Without an efficient feedback system, Can I do the same thing over and over again? Are the lindens guy ignoring the fact that their world isn't just a game but have a parallel economy within? (At last ebay give to the users a minimum amount of security an trust with their feedback system, it's that difficult?) Have the managers of linden a minimal idea of how an economy should work? This kind of fraud it's not damaging only the people that subscribe an account but even the people that want to open a similar business and doing it honestly, people will not trust the SL economy any more. I want to finish with the question to the community, does a police department that resolve those case? Thank you for your time, for the patience of reading this post I apologize for any grammatical errors...
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Viktoria Dovgal
…
Join date: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 3,593
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12-19-2007 06:47
From: Gadosilver Crimson Can I open a bank, attract people with daily interest, take the money without give them back and be unpunished? Sure, as long as you aren't seen standing near a random number generator. (edit to add: sooner or later, someone will will get angry enough about this to pursue this kind of theft in the real world. LL will presumably be forced to hand over the necessary information when that happens.)
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Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
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12-19-2007 06:52
From: Gadosilver Crimson Can I open a bank, attract people with daily interest, take the money without give them back and be unpunished? Yes.
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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12-19-2007 06:53
your post answered your question. No, you can't trust any alleged "bank" or financial scheme in SL, because of the very reason stated. There is no one to oversee and regulate them. the best place to keep your lindens is in your account, this and know who you pay for things and why. It's obvious LL doesn't have the inclination or the ability to police the actions between residents, and I doubt they will open any official SL bank. The rule of thumb, "Ya pays ya money, ya takes ya chances".
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Raudf Fox
(ra-ow-th)
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 5,119
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12-19-2007 06:53
From: Viktoria Dovgal Sure, as long as you aren't seen standing near a random number generator.
(edit to add: sooner or later, someone will will get angry enough about this to pursue this kind of theft in the real world. LL will presumably be forced to hand over the necessary information when that happens.) I'll agree with the edit. When someone has lost a large enough amount of money to make it worth it to go after the idiots AND to take LL with the idiots, then we'll see a change in policy. Or if the media gets wind of this and points it out.. which will probably follow the lawsuit. As for the random number generator? It's not considered gambling if there is no chance of winning your money back... Also, the OP should really take out the names of the bank and the owner of the bank, to prevent locking.
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Sae Luan
Hardcore 4the Headstrong
Join date: 6 Feb 2006
Posts: 841
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12-19-2007 06:53
It's not worth much, but I think those people SHOULD be punished if it's on that level. Lil transaction squabbles are one thing, but allowing residents to give you money in large amounts in faith you will return it to them and then NOT is crazy. In RL it'd be highly wrong to do...LL or LR or whatever they callin themselves these days needs to step up to the plate and take a lil bit of responsibility towards their customers. I'm editting to add that: A. Investing in SL banks is ignorant...seriously ignorant. I am never surprised to hear about someone getting "taken" for their money in SL. B. LL may not have any real responsibility, this is my opinion, I just feel like a company shouldn't let people steal money from other people right under their noses BUT...ONLY the ignorant are going to be having this issue. Most, well alot, of us know better...it's like poking a bear to see how long before it'll attack. I didn't want to sound rude my first time I posted on this thread, but at the risk of sounding like a sympathizer, I've editted my opinion to include how ignorant it is to invest in banks in SL.
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Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
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12-19-2007 06:54
Given this situation it's rather ridiculous that this thread can exist /327/e1/230648/1.html
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Chas Connolly
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,433
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12-19-2007 06:59
Welcome to the forums, Gadosilver.
I think the trick here is to ask this question BEFORE you put your money into an unregistered and unsupervised so-called financial institution. I think the answer would have been a resounding no.
Hope you didn't lose too much.
EDIT: Oh, and you should probably remove the name of the evildoer from your post. After all, that would be breaking forum rules.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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12-19-2007 07:02
A question for those who do invest in SL 'banks': Would you feel comfortable opening up an 'account' outside of SL with an individual, perhaps via a website, offering banking services? I'm not surprised LL won't get involved; I'm finding it very hard to describe my thoughts without offending those who do invest in these 'banks', so I will just say one thing: CAVEAT EMPTOR!
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Sae Luan
Hardcore 4the Headstrong
Join date: 6 Feb 2006
Posts: 841
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12-19-2007 07:06
From: Hiro Queso A question for those who do invest in SL 'banks': Would you feel comfortable opening up an 'account' outside of SL with an individual, perhaps via a website, offering banking services? I'm not surprised LL won't get involved; I'm finding it very hard to describe my thoughts without offending those who do invest in these 'banks', so I will just say one thing: CAVEAT EMPTOR! You're completely right. I've never personally invested in these banks, for the same reason I wouldn't go to some random website on the internet and start forking over money. Hell, I get ansy when I have to pay like a couple bucks for a membership at alot of websites... But, still, doesn't LL feel they have any responsibility to take this guy/girl down when they are doing something like that? I can see if it's a one person's word against anothers type of thing, but this is something that this guy/girl put a GROUP of people through, all of who can say, yes he stole our money. I don't wanna argue the point, I just think LL needs to take responsibility on this level...allowing him to continue operating businesses in SL is saying it's OK in my opinion.
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
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12-19-2007 07:08
People can be so dumb. I'm not picking on the OP, here, but...
There have been NUMEROUS threads in these forums, and on third party forums, about the risks inherent in SL "banks" and "stock exchanges". Many, including one very large one with over a quarter million dollars (real life dollars) in depositor investments, have folded overnight.
These "banks" promise impossibly high rates of return. Has no one ever heard the old saying, "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is"?
Once again: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BANK OR A STOCK EXCHANGE IN SECOND LIFE. THESE BUSINESSES ARE RUN BY INDIVIDUALS. THEY ARE NOT REGULATED AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO ANY LAWS. YOUR DEPOSITS ARE NOT INSURED. YOU ARE NOT GUARANTEED ANY RATE OF RETURN, AND YOUR ENTIRE INVESTMENT IS AT RISK.
By far the safest place for your lindens is your SL account. If you want to earn a return on them, either put them to work in a business of your own, or experiment with currency trading between $L and $US on the Lindex. Putting them in an SL "bank" is like dropping them in a dancer's tip jar.
Lucrezia, do we have a warning about this in the Newbie Info Kit?
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Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
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12-19-2007 07:09
From: Gadosilver Crimson The owner send to the customer a note card explaining the reasons of the incident. The message say that the ATM due to a hacker attack went down a so all the accounts with the transactions are lose and he can't give back the money. being devils advocate, if the above statement is true, does anyone here believe LL would confirm that this account had been hacked or would they rather no one know?
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Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
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12-19-2007 07:34
From: Gadosilver Crimson So, what this does mean? Can I open a bank, attract people with daily interest, take the money without give them back and be unpunished?
Yes. Do you see my sig? It was the response from the owner of SL's largest bank when questioned about where everybody's money went after he closed the doors. He absconded with several hundred thousand US(!) dollars and nothing has happened to him. Makes me sick just thinking about it. The bank was called Ginko, you can search the forums for Ginko to get plenty of info on this guy.
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"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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12-19-2007 07:37
Don't ever trust anyone not backed by the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Act) or the same sort of program in your own country. Unless maybe it's a Swiss bank. If I saw some guy standing on the street who said "Hey I'm a bank! Give me your money and I'll keep it for you, yeah... and give you back MORE than what you gave me...yeah..." I wouldn't trust him. Why would I trust Joe Avatar?
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Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
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12-19-2007 07:43
Welcome to the forums, Gadosilver, and I'm sorry that your first posting here is such a sad one.
No, there is no inworld police force to help you. By the way, if you find a group calling itself "police" or "security" force of any kind inworld, they are almost certainly griefers or, more generously, time-wasting roleplayers. You have no recourse unless you want to sue, in which case the court would be able to find out the RL identity involved.
Here's what I do in SL: if an SL business provides no RL contact information, I deal with them exclusively in Lindens (no Paypal or other RL info of my own), and only advance an amount I can afford to lose. E.g., with the estate owner from whom I rent land, I paid a purchase price for the land, and advance one month rent at a time. If I lose those advances, I will not weep. So far, it has turned out well.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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12-19-2007 07:43
From: Sae Luan You're completely right. I've never personally invested in these banks, for the same reason I wouldn't go to some random website on the internet and start forking over money. Hell, I get ansy when I have to pay like a couple bucks for a membership at alot of websites... But, still, doesn't LL feel they have any responsibility to take this guy/girl down when they are doing something like that? I can see if it's a one person's word against anothers type of thing, but this is something that this guy/girl put a GROUP of people through, all of who can say, yes he stole our money. I don't wanna argue the point, I just think LL needs to take responsibility on this level...allowing him to continue operating businesses in SL is saying it's OK in my opinion. There are two reasons why I think they should/would not get involved: 1) How does LL decide who is in the right, and who is in the wrong? If people have willingly invested in another individual's business, whether in the form of a 'bank' or not, how can LL take the owner of that company to task when they go 'bust'? I know that many situations are ethically black and white to most residents, and to LL employees, but a company has to be guided by policies/rules, and not ethics, as there are too many subjective grey areas associated with ethical situations. If they started getting involved, LL would be opening up one seriously big can of worms! 2) Even if there was a clear way forward for LL to police these matters, can you imagine how many human resources it would require? Also, looking forward, can you see how that would also scale VERY painfully? Would you be willing to pay more in tier fees to cover the extra staff needed? I'm sure LL do deal with some of these situations, but they would be crazy to make it general policy. I would much rather their resources go into fixing things that residents have no way to prevent themselves. Residents can prevent the above situation themselves by taking responsibility for where they invest their L$.
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Ronaldo McMahon
Registered User
Join date: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 77
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12-19-2007 07:51
I still have the bonds Mr Ginko gave me.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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12-19-2007 07:52
From: Ronaldo McMahon I still have the bonds Mr Ginko gave me. I'll give you a prim cube for them. Full perms.
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Ronaldo McMahon
Registered User
Join date: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 77
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12-19-2007 07:57
So they're not entirely worthless, then.
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Conifer Dada
Hiya m'dooks!
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,716
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12-19-2007 08:00
The official LL transaction and banking system is the only one I'd trust. It's bona fide and an integral part of the SL platform. OK, I've heard about objects people try to give you that empty your account etc. but the system itself is well intentioned. Any other banking system is superfluous. Basically, with unofficial banking systems you are just giving your money to someone and hoping they give it back when you want it. It's like land transactions. I mean, I've seen land 'for sale' where the vendor asks you to pay them the money first, then they 'sell' the land to you afterwards for L$0. Why would an honest person try to do that when there is a proper automated land transaction system? Same with banks.
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Chas Connolly
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,433
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12-19-2007 08:02
From: Ronaldo McMahon So they're not entirely worthless, then. Of course not. At the very least they're worth the paper they're printed on, if you print them out. Then again, if you do print them out, the paper will be worthless. So I guess they are.
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2k Suisei
Registered User
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 2,150
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12-19-2007 08:04
From: Sae Luan It's not worth much, but I think those people SHOULD be punished if it's on that level. Lil transaction squabbles are one thing, but allowing residents to give you money in large amounts in faith you will return it to them and then NOT is crazy. In RL it'd be highly wrong to do...LL or LR or whatever they callin themselves these days needs to step up to the plate and take a lil bit of responsibility towards their customers. ? People who invest in SL Banks should be stoned to death. LL has no responsibility at all. They're not our parents. If anything, LL has a responsibility to do absolutely nothing. Getting involved would be irresponsible.
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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12-19-2007 08:16
This is the only LL policy specifically addressing banks that i know of. From: Policy on Resident-Run L$ Financial Services and Securities 11-17-2005 04:26 PM by Ginsu Linden Linden Lab has noted the appearance of resident enterprises that are similar to investment funds, stock offerings, and banking services. We applaud the continued innovation and entrepreneurship of our community, and we think that many of these services can provide great benefits to Second Life. Because some of these matters seem similar to real-world activities that are heavily regulated, we are often asked what Linden Lab can do to ensure that the services operate as promised and in compliance with applicable laws. As with any resident-run enterprise, please keep in mind that Linden Lab does not own, operate or insure these services. As with any transaction among residents, Linden Lab has limited responsibility and ability to resolve disputes.
Our Roman friends used to say: Caveat Emptor. That's certainly a good principle to keep in mind. It's also good to remember that Second Life is based on creativity and innovation, and community and collective action. We hope that educated skepticism and buyer demand will lead to trusted institutions that can provide many of the benefits of a regulated system. Aside from that, there have been some unofficial statements from Mr. Philip on the matter, during his office hours, where he states "we try very hard not to make rules we do not need to." This is consistent with the official policy, above. http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/358 others may be able to find more. this is complete to the best of my knowledge.
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Banking Laws
Realty Serious
Join date: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 602
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12-19-2007 08:19
From: Gadosilver Crimson I want to post this message as a disappointment to the linden lab policy system and about his report abuse (the famous "big 6"  . The lindens explicit write that they will not take action against money thief or other business fraud. Few days ago a bank system (the LZ Bank owned by Letum Zuma) has been closed and all the accounts has been lose. The owner send to the customer a note card explaining the reasons of the incident. The message say that the ATM due to a hacker attack went down a so all the accounts with the transactions are lose and he can't give back the money. The fact that a bank can lose all the records of their customer is ridiculous, the other fact is that the tracks aren't lose at all. If you log in via browser and look at the money transactions it clearly show that a member pay this guy through his ATM (there are date, hour, transaction number,how much you pay, everything....), it should be a sufficient prof to ask the lindens to take action. If you send any messages to this guy he won't give any answers. I meet just yesterday with others members that lose money as well and they say that even before this happen it was not possible to withdrawal money from ATM, when a panel near it clearly say that was possible to do it every day. Naturally people ask him what's wrong and naturally no answers were sent by him. So, what this does mean? Can I open a bank, attract people with daily interest, take the money without give them back and be unpunished? Without an efficient feedback system, Can I do the same thing over and over again? Are the lindens guy ignoring the fact that their world isn't just a game but have a parallel economy within? (At last ebay give to the users a minimum amount of security an trust with their feedback system, it's that difficult?) Have the managers of linden a minimal idea of how an economy should work? This kind of fraud it's not damaging only the people that subscribe an account but even the people that want to open a similar business and doing it honestly, people will not trust the SL economy any more. I want to finish with the question to the community, does a police department that resolve those case? Thank you for your time, for the patience of reading this post I apologize for any grammatical errors... Why would you trust a nonaccredited stranger with your money? Oh and it -is- a game to me.
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"I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid in posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson, 3rd U.S. President
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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12-19-2007 08:20
The whole "fictional" tag is bullsh-- and allows people to create illegal, unregulated banks and securities. I understand newbies getting sucked in by others' advice and getting an account - hell, I did - but when you can't get transparency, it should be a wake up call to get out.
Anyone remember the movie Poltergeist? "GET... OUT!!!"
But nooooo, those stupid people stayed in the house.
Hm, I guess that analogy is appropriate...
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