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The use of openspace sims

Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
07-15-2008 14:40
From: Atom Burma
Actually yours was the only post I thought made any sense. I mean sure we all want to love the openspace sims, and I have seen many used to buffer full sims beautifully. But when people claim they perform as well as a full sim, I sort of have to shake my head a bit. It is just a shame that the people who really don't know the difference are the ones who seem to get screwed by the lag of the open space. I guess it really is buyer beware.

Here's what's going on, generally, with openspaces:

- low script performance,

- much fewer textures to cause problems.



Some pro's and con's - and why people remain ignorant of both very good and very bad conditions:


1) The "Babe in the Woods" scenario:

Say you abusively, crushingly, horrifically load down an openspace region with scripts. It's suffering, and you can practically hear the electrons screaming when you turn on statistics view.

Drop a noob in there... and guess what, they walk around just fine, textures load fine - they can't even seem to find any problem!

Of course, if you tried operating a scripted nonphysical vehicle it would be just about frozen, but for *that user* walking around they see nearly 45 FPS, no time dilation, and don't even realise what you are talking about.

Lag? What lag? Yet the region is on its knees.

In many cases the new resident will think "the vehicle is broken" or "the script is broken" when in fact nothing could be further from the case.




2) The "Lol, What?" scenario:

Say you have an openspace region - nay, *any* region absolutely bereft of scripts and prims. Nothing. In. It. At all.

You are standing in one corner looking out across the empty region enjoying ridiculously awesome performance.

However, that region borders three others: A, B, and C. Smack at the corner, region A has a furniture yard sale, B has a texture shop and C has Fast Eddie's 5000 prim Mecha Robot Avatar Camping - and there are 40 customers idled there.

Not one of them are in the same region; all just across the border.

You turn around from your pristine view and look - and your computer locks up for two and a half minutes. While you play with the little hourglassy thing that replaced your mouse pointer.

But there is *absolutely* nothing wrong with the region you are in!



3) The "Typhoid Mary of Lag" scenario:

So you've got a standard region... it does alright, not great, nobody complains much.

Then one day, you get five reports of absolutely devastating performance.

Resident A reports that his scripts are a bit off - would you check the region please?

Resident B reports that he's having a bit of trouble but only after dinner, east coast time, and the mornings are fine.

Residents C, D and E say they asked one of the estate managers to restart a region three times, but each time it kept coming back "laggy." Resident D was particularly upset, complained of "all the lag that SL seems to have lately" and said the game was junk.

You log in mid-day, and can't find a thing wrong. Alright. You try again east coast "after dinner" hours. Residents A and B are there, and both say it's been bad all night, but seems to be working just as you show up. Okay, whatever.

Suddenly you get an IM from Resident D, who is at wit's end. You are on another service call in another region, but you TP Resident D to you - and suddenly enter a slow-motion time warp.

Unbeknownst to you however, Resident D has Scammer McFly's HUD of 666 Active Scripts, is wearing the equivalent prims of 1/3 of a region and each one of them seems to have a unique texture.

Just as you type "Hi" the blade-tips of your graphics card fan spool up enough to break the sound barrier, and scare your cat.

And Resident D is here to tell you how bad all these rotten regions are, wherever they go these days. But in spite of that, offers you a copy of the cool HUD their super-genius friend just made.


* * * * *

So yeah, it's a bit like swapping racecars and delivery trucks, depending what you are doing.


Openspaces tend to handle lots of avatars okay - I've seen them operate even to the 100 avatar limit and maintain time dilation over .90 with ease - sometimes better than a standard region.

Why? Because a standard region typically and easily contains 10k or 12k prims, and multiply a huge number of those prim sides with unique textures. Multiply those runaway #'s of textures by the number of av's needing to see them, too.

Openspace regions are so empty there's not generally not enough prims to slather textures on like that, and what there are, are often spread far apart - out of draw distance. So you don't get anywhere near the performance hit from textures - one of the top offenders if not the #1 lag problem in most regions.


Scripts - this is where openspaces really break down. Forget about mono coming for a moment - if you are going to do anything that uses scripts heavily, you may want to think twice about openspace regions. But seriously, I've seen regional script usage in dozens of sims across two years.

The top offenders are stupid things like "wind chimes" and "patches the squirrel" at 1.480 each or some ridiculously high number, followed by 90% of everything else at .025 or .010. Zap three or four things and suddenly everything works.

This is generally why openspaces + estate managership works so well - give people the power to see what's going on and they typically zap their own problem items.


Okay, big long technical post. It's just frustrating to see situations where people say "this crappy Ferrari won't let me carry my oil drums effectively at all!" or "this fourteen wheeler has no acceleration!" - the devil really is in the details.

That said, I'd like to see more of these details. Part of the problem is that performance is a moving target, every time the server software gets an update.

Let's all do what we can to nail down as many facts as possible.
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Sling Trebuchet
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07-15-2008 14:45
/me votes to make Desmond's post a sticky *everywhere*.
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Atom Burma
Registered User
Join date: 30 May 2006
Posts: 685
07-15-2008 18:29
I have to second that. He so has a way with words. I have lived all those scenerios as well. I managed a few sims in my day. And you do get non stop problems in IM's, partially because of time zones, sim performance during peak times, and honestly just crappy computers. I am a big fan of mainland. I have a mainland sim and never believed the whole, estates are so amazing, hands down better than mainland. If one owns the whole mainland sim, there really is such a level of control you have, that lag just isn't a constant issue. I am also a firm believer of leaving some 20-30% of your prims unused, to combat lag. And having scripts that are not running 24/7. But you summed it up so well.
Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
07-15-2008 21:01
I'll third dat. Great post full of very useful information!
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Bitova Loon
Registered User
Join date: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 16
07-16-2008 07:03
Ok so it looks like a few of us are willing to donate test time on Open Sims and attempt to gather / compare results

@ Desmond Shang .. Good Summary and amusing post

@ Atom Burma - re gathering Stats on the open sims .. I agree it could be a waste unless caveated with as much repeatable detail as possible .. In my case most of our open sims are ours and are used as "Pretty land" around our main sim .. so the content does not change much .. I was doing random time testing over a number of days on one open sim and to be honest it was within experimental error. Also I recorded each time number of Items, Number of Active items and Number of Running scripts as well as which SIM (address and port etc) it was running on ..

I'm willing to contribute to an organised community test effort

I was wondering could we Possibly even get to a "set of guideline rules".. something like ..

Max number of scripts of ABC, with a Max Script run time of XXX ms of which no one script runs more than YYYms etc etc

Maybe add in a Max number of textures of ??? and dont use textures sizes of > 512 * 512

etc etc
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
07-16-2008 07:57
smiles... thanks everybody... :)

From: Bitova Loon
Maybe add in a Max number of textures of ??? and dont use textures sizes of > 512 * 512

Not that people commonly do it, but 1024 x 1024 textures are the "lowest lag"... sounds backwards but it works like this:

Say you have sixteen 256 x 256 textures - tile them up on a single 1024 x 1024 and texture things using scaling and offsets.

Bitwise it's the same, but it's now just one asset server hit (the 1024) instead of sixteen (all the 256 textures one by one). That's 1/16 or only 6.3 % of the number of asset server hits it would have been prior.

Of course that's more work and planning, and getting anyone to use a 256 x 256 texture instead of a 512 x 512 is like getting them to eat mixed vegetables instead of chili fries. Sure, you'll have to use some 512 x 512's.

But enter an environment with say, even just 10% of the asset server hits than "normal" and it's soooo nice :)
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Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
07-16-2008 08:27
From: Desmond Shang
Not that people commonly do it, but 1024 x 1024 textures are the "lowest lag"... sounds backwards but it works like this:
AHHHH!

I always wondered why my horrid laptop crashed in Caledon. With newer clients, it's better than it was, but this explains it. Sims with a lot of 1024 textures are rare.

The laptop has Intel integrated grapics and 512MB of ram total, so no worries Des, I'm one of the very few insane players that would even try to use it. But I'm having to spend a lot of time at a sick relative's, and it's the only way I can login at all some weeks.
.
Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
07-16-2008 08:32
From: Desmond Shang
Say you have sixteen 256 x 256 textures - tile them up on a single 1024 x 1024 and texture things using scaling and offsets.

Bitwise it's the same, but it's now just one asset server hit (the 1024) instead of sixteen (all the 256 textures one by one). That's 1/16 or only 6.3 % of the number of asset server hits it would have been prior.


I'm a huge fan of this technique, and use it often in my builds. It also helps if I find myself later hunting for all the texturess in a build -- they're all in one image instead of 16!

Mari

Relevant to this thread:
Hey, where did that island off the south coast of Livingtree come from?
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Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
07-16-2008 08:45
I go into just about any full scale sim with more than 10 avatars and the lag is unbearable.
Whats the point of having an expensive sim when it can't even handle the load of 10 avatars?

No wonder small groups of like minds are escaping to the paradise of a less primmed sim where they don't really need all those scripts and textures to have a good time.

Linden Lab needs to drop the requirement to already own a full sim and sell OS sims to any *premium account* that wants them. This might be a great reason to have a premium account.

I might buy one just to have a secure workshop. That way if a rather unique design nobody has been shown shows up in someone else's store (has already happened) then its a safe bet where the database mole is lol.

As I recall all sims used to be run 4 to a host. Secondlife didn't die then and it isn't going to die now.
Rioko Bamaisin
Unstable Princess
Join date: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,668
07-16-2008 08:48
I just recently rented a 8192 on an openspace sim. There are two other plots there 4096 each and the rest is water. I love it and couldn't be more happier. I see no performance issues at all personally.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
07-16-2008 09:09
From: Desmond Shang
Say you have sixteen 256 x 256 textures - tile them up on a single 1024 x 1024 and texture things using scaling and offsets.

Bitwise it's the same, but it's now just one asset server hit (the 1024) instead of sixteen (all the 256 textures one by one). That's 1/16 or only 6.3 % of the number of asset server hits it would have been prior.
You'd actually want to do this because there is a good chance that it'll simply render faster depending on how/where you use the textures.

The asset hit is just a single time, the render benefit would apply continually for as long as the linkset is actively being rendered.
Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
07-16-2008 23:53
You can either have your 10,000 prims alone on 65,000m or you can have them on a 6500 block sharing scripts and stuff with 6 other parcel owners.
I know which sounds better to me, if I could "own" it direct rather than have to rent from a 3rd party.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
07-17-2008 00:33
From: Nika Talaj
AHHHH!

I always wondered why my horrid laptop crashed in Caledon. With newer clients, it's better than it was, but this explains it. Sims with a lot of 1024 textures are rare.

The laptop has Intel integrated grapics and 512MB of ram total, so no worries Des, I'm one of the very few insane players that would even try to use it. But I'm having to spend a lot of time at a sick relative's, and it's the only way I can login at all some weeks.
.


Well... I don't know what the issue was, but it wasn't that I think... I don't have a rule saying to texture that way, or only buy things made that way with tiled textures on 1024 x 1024 - that's kinda unenforceable.

The prim/texture mix in Caledon is about the same as anywhere, really (I've checked a number of times).

* * * * *

I see the "requirement to have a standard region" before getting openspaces as a mixed blessing.

Pro:

- if you aren't already well-versed in dealing with a forgiving, abuse-me-and-I'll-still-work standard region, you are in for a rude shock with an openspace region. People who can't even build get land - try explaining multithread serverside software to someone who just learned what a prim was last week.

- bad as it sounds to 'prop up the land barons'... if the private estates collapse due to just anyone suddenly able to get an openspace, there's gonna be a land economy collapse that will hit like a tidal wave. For instance, dieting is good in the long run, but not eating for three weeks straight thas drawbacks - that's the sort of move it would be. Ah, no sudden suicide-ninja moves with the land economy, please.


Con:

- Yeah, I heard about the lovey-dovey "opensource the world" movement, but in the business world that means: "Hey guess what, you gave everyone and your dog your OWN product and you are now competing against yourself!" So the price of regions and tier will eventually fall through the floor, someday wiping out land barony and the Company's business model with it. Net result: someday they may *have* to offer openspace regions to anybody, just to survive. Probably won't have a choice.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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07-17-2008 00:47
From: Kitty Barnett
Ygood chance that it'll simply render faster
Why would it render faster?






I don't suppose there's any chance it would reduce the chance of gray textures.
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Sling Trebuchet
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07-17-2008 01:44
From: Desmond Shang
...............

Con:

- Yeah, I heard about the lovey-dovey "opensource the world" movement, but in the business world that means: "Hey guess what, you gave everyone and your dog your OWN product and you are now competing against yourself!" So the price of regions and tier will eventually fall through the floor, someday wiping out land barony and the Company's business model with it. Net result: someday they may *have* to offer openspace regions to anybody, just to survive. Probably won't have a choice.


"Con:" Yes, and the other meaning of "con" in which people think they can replace their LL with an Open Source sim.
There are just a few itty-bitty issues to be solved before that can happen.
"Where's my Inventory dude?"
"Why can't people TP in from SL? (and where's their Inventory)"
"Why don't IMs and Groups work?"
"Why can't I move L$ around?"

Running a sim server is the least costly element of the tech running SL.
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Feline Slade
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Join date: 19 May 2007
Posts: 201
07-17-2008 04:31
From: Desmond Shang
I see the "requirement to have a standard region" before getting openspaces as a mixed blessing.

As much as I'd like my very own openspace direct from SL, I don't believe they'll do it any time soon. (Yes, feel free to point this thread out to me if they release them to anyone tomorrow.) The reason is this one:

From: someone
- if you aren't already well-versed in dealing with a forgiving, abuse-me-and-I'll-still-work standard region, you are in for a rude shock with an openspace region. People who can't even build get land - try explaining multithread serverside software to someone who just learned what a prim was last week.

By requiring you to have a full standard region as well as openspace sims, SL is consolidating the number of customers they have to deal with on support issues. If everybody could have their own openspace sim, the support ticket queue would bury them so far they might never dig out. So requiring one owner for multiople sims rather than one owner per sim is self-defense against staffing up in a big way.

Whether LL needs to staff up in a big way anyhow is an entirely different question, but I see it as a smart move not to overwhelm their resources further. You can only get/train staff so fast. And I think we've seen dilution of their knowledge recently, which happens when you bring new people on.
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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
07-17-2008 04:54
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
Why would it render faster?
Everything is rendered in batches and the fewer batches are needed, the faster a single frame will render.

If you have a linkset with 10 different non-alpha textures on it it will take 10 batches to render all of it (simplified since there are other things that can break batches and some batches could be combined with something else that uses the same texture). If the entire linkset has only one single texture on the other hand there's no need to switch textures and the entire thing could potentially be rendered in one single batch.

If you look back to Pastrami's explanation of ARC you'll see some other things that get a "penalty" in part because they break render batches.

(The viewer could stitch textures together on-the-fly as well and use that, but it's not something they're doing as far as I know)
Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
07-17-2008 17:24
Naive question about openspace sims: if you are looking at a parcel on a sim that has been divided into a set of large parcels, is there a simple way to tell whether it's on an openspace sim or a regular one? The only ways I can think of are to add up the prim limits on all the parcels in the sim, or of course ask the owner. Neither of these seem without flaw.

Is there a simple thing I'm missing?
.
Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
07-17-2008 17:35
From: Nika Talaj
Is there a simple thing I'm missing?
About Land / Object

Make sure to look for the "Region Object Bonus Factor" (if it's not listed it's not in use) and then just look at the *parcel* prim count.

Mentally multiply the *parcel* prim count by 4 (and divide by the bonus) and you should be close to the parcel size, you can round the numbers up since there's a substantial difference between the two.

If you have any feel for how many prims should be available on a x m² parcel you'll just spot it instantly though, it's only the object bonus you should watch out for.

Example:
4096m² - 937 prims = 1000 (easier number to multiply) x 4 = 4000m² = full sim
4096m² - 234 prims = 250 x 4 = 1000m² = openspace
4096m² - 585 prims - object bonus 2.5 = 600 x 4 / 3 = 800m² = openspace
4096m² - 2343 prims - object bonus 2.5 = 2500 x 4 / 3 = 3333m² = full sim
Wildefire Walcott
Heartbreaking
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 2,156
07-17-2008 17:48
From: Nika Talaj
Naive question about openspace sims: if you are looking at a parcel on a sim that has been divided into a set of large parcels, is there a simple way to tell whether it's on an openspace sim or a regular one? The only ways I can think of are to add up the prim limits on all the parcels in the sim, or of course ask the owner. Neither of these seem without flaw.

Is there a simple thing I'm missing?
.

Other than the object math voodoo Kitty mentioned, there is no indication in the UI that you're on a different kind of sim, unfortunately.
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Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
07-17-2008 17:58
From: Kitty Barnett
About Land / Object
Thanks Kitty! Great trick, for those of us not used to playing around with larger parcels ...
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