Advice after latest land rip-off

Again, Amity, you have not said whether you have mentionned to the estate owner that there was an error with their rent box object.

This thread is pointless until you have done that.

Feel free to expand on the availability of the information.

Anyone any theories as to why the OP is dodging this question? Could it be that this whole situation is a fiction? Or merely that she hasn't bothered to approach the estate owner about the error (it is pretty clear that this is indeed an honest mistake by the estate owner) so that she can get some sympathy?

Very simple, do a search of these Forums for a start. Talk to people who have more experience than you do. Two very simple ways of finding things out. But they require you taking responsibility for yourself.

I presumed reputation-neutral in my example, as it was weighing finances only. By far, reputation is the most overwhelming factor.

Incidentally, I did look at your operation 'back in the day' and you were great inspiration to me early on.

I had tier a bit above yours, but ran exactly the same way at first: no up-front fees!

Why? Heh, it may surprise you, but it was because you did!


I'm not quite sure how you managed the 'resale' situation - in my regions it was pretty blatant, with residents offering "Land for Sale to Own" - and cashing out.

People would come in, toss $L 1000 or so on a parcel meter, sell off the 'right to rent' they got for free for $L 40k or $L 65k and say: "Hey Des, I need you to transfer to this parcel to this other guy Right Now! By the way, got any more parcels I can rent?"

This is how the 1250 USD I painstakingly raised selling prim chairs and tables got passed out for free to anonymous strangers in a matter of weeks.

* * * * *

As for the single sim ubiquitous 'palm tree' estates - yeah, it would be *very* wise to size up the situation. Look at motivation, always.

Dollar per hour spent, Caledon is staaarting to get worthwhile, but a single sim? Even four - well, heh. Imagine expending the effort of a 20 hour per week part time job for... what? 200 bucks a month? 800?

Once the fun is gone, the 'new sim smell' has worn off and the trysting resident-lovers are creating drama so bad they go back to their RL marriages for relief, indeed, many sim owners ask: wtf am I doing here?

I know there *are* startups that are very worthwhile out there, but yeah, there are also a lot of kids that want to play 'big business' with no clue what they are getting into.

Get to know the guy you are dealing with, and see how worthwhile the situation is for him to stay and treat you right.

* * * * *

As for the mainland rentals market, why does one charge and the other not?

I'd daresay it has a *lot* to do with the mainland success of Prokofy Neva, another person who taught me a great deal about land here in the first place, early on.

Say what you will about Prokofy, Prokofy does well in business, and even offers tier refunds - a very risky practise *unless* you really, really, really do provide what people want, and do it *very* well. Which Prok does. Even while being a controversial figure.

Anyone doing mainland rental is going to have to meet or beat that highly successful model, and that business model (last I heard) is in over 60 sims - roughly on par with Caledon in raw size (maybe exceeds, I don't really know) and serves a LOT more people.

The other great thing about Prokofy's model is diversity - Caledon may be sort of the Hamptons in a way, but Ravenglass has a wide, wide, wide diversity - everything from 'cheap hotels' to fancy wilderness retreats to fairly large, free parcels.

Bluntly stated, you are gonna have to be GOOD on the mainland to compete against that.

Amity did say in her second post that she explained to him about the problem with the rental box.

That's all the answer I needed.

Actually I believe there *is* recourse here - if there was a rental agreement - and it was notecarded to you in-world ... and you paid your tier fees and have records of the transfer - (I would keep it) ... then you could actually get your money back by going to real life small claims court ... it would be something new, not done - that I know of - but I believe there needs to be legal remedy even in SL for those who screw people out of money ... it would take just one person to stand up ... and file the suit. =)

I did point that out. I pointed that out prior to his response to me that "i sent you 4 im's and let u know that the tierwas never paid not sure what more u wanted".

I brought the the situation to the attention of someone else who knows the estate owner. At the bottom of the covenant on the land, there is a thing that says "For any questions please contact me, <Some Guy, not the estate owner> or if I am not available, contact <Some Guy's wife>, or <Estate Owner>." So I contacted the Some Guy. Some Guy responded that "I'm not partners <Estate Owner> in <Region with my land>." So I guess Some Guy was surprised to find that he was listed as a contact person on these regions about which he didn't know. But he did say that he would talk to Estate Owner if Estate Owner did not respond.

After receiving Estate Owner's "i sent you 4 im's and let u know that the tierwas never paid not sure what more u wanted," I responded via IM to the Estate Owner (stored, he wasn't online), "That is not an acceptable response. The tier was paid, I gave you the transaction number. I expect you to actually check your accounts before taking drastic action. I expect your tier box to actually work. And yes you sent me IMs after I paid, which I received today, the day after you sent them, but you know what, it's too late now. As soon as I log in to see why you are claiming I owe tier after I paid it, the land was reclaimed. So I take it that you are saying you're not taking any responsibility for this?"

I made up a little note card with essentially the contents of my original post in this thread, and gave it to Some Guy.

This morning in e-mail, I found several IMs.

The first chronologically (Dec. 4, 4:19) was from Some Guy. "<Estate Owner> told me last night it was his inenton to offer you a property, exactly the same size, no charge. Did he tell you the same?"

Of course, that's not what Estate Owner had told me.

But then there were later IMs from Estate Owner. On Dec. 4, at 4:46, Estate Owner responds to my IM with, "that not what i am saying what i am sayong is i can give you the transaction number where the lindens were returned to u in a few mns and again i sent u 2 ims on the 1st one on the second and one on the 3rd" After that, at 4:54, "anyway the land u were on was bough tnad tier was pd the only thing i can do is give u the same number of meters in a different location, as i had no clue the tier was pd and returned all i knew was the tier was not pd and i sent u im's"

So that leaves me with several options. One is to take this land. But I don't want the land, all I will do with it is immediately resell it, because I don't really want to pay any more money to this joker. He doesn't manage his accounts, when his objects or whatever don't work he won't take responsibility, he mis-remembers or flat out lies about things, I have to start going to his pals about problems to get him to do anything, and there was a lot shoddy about his operation that I didn't post here because it's not immediately relevant to the rip-off, but I was stuck with him (remember I didn't buy from him, I bought from someone who sold the estate to him), and I thought I'd give him a chance to prove that he wasn't shoddy and it was just a bad first impression.

If I take the land and immediately resell it, then I get to live with the fact of passing my problem on to someone else to make a few quick dollars. My other option is to tell him I don't want the land, I just want the money for which he resold my land. And when I tell him that, I expect him to just say no, with impunity, knowing I'm stuck with whatever he wants to offer me. So at this point I'm deciding which bad medicine I'm going to take.

As the owner of an 'ubiquitous two-sim palm-tree estate' it always upsets me to read threads like this. When these incidents happen, I feel it tarnishes the reputation of every estate owner, to some degree. Being a relative newcomer to SL and a relatively quiet / low-key person, I know I have a long, long way to go to build any kind of reputation or name for myself.

As far as how to get information on a prospective estate owner, the best advice I can give is to talk to the people already living there. Ask if they like the place, if they like the estate owner, if they've ever had any problems. Ask how long they've been there. You probably can never be 100% certain or 100% safe, and there is always going to be the potential for things to change, mistakes to happen, things to get borked. But if the other residents are happy, if they like the estate manager, that is usually a good indication.

-Atashi

Problem one is that I don't think this states Small Claims Court would issue a subpoena, which would be required to get Linden Labs to divulge this guy's name and address so I could even serve the lawsuit upon him. Problem two is that my maximum recovery on this case is something in the $100 USD to $200 USD range, which isn't worth the time and expense of a lawsuit. I can't sue him for legal expenses or for the costs of preparing my case- unless there were a special circumstance, like a contract provision allowing for it, or if I could prove fraud. In this case, the best I could probably prove, even if I got all my information together, is that he is incompetent, not that he actively tried to defraud me.

So yes I could sue. But the reality of the situation is that it's not practical to do so over $100 USD.

The Better Business Bureau exists to provide an alternative dispute resolution mechanism in which the courts are too expensive to use. But the first thing I'd have to do with the BBB is provide contact information for the guy, which I don't have, so that idea is shot.

Well I'll take take that as a compliment (don't reply and tell me I got that wrong ); thanks Desmond, but I'm not sure it's so cool you ended up in a business model that didn't work for you! At least in spite of that you got to a place you want to be pretty quickly.



I had 'resale' in estate tools disabled to lessen any possible confusion over ownership. I suppose I was fairly fortunate at the time having a waiting list, so if someone upped and left, I could fill that spot immediately. Management was easier as time passed, as the number of 'stayers' increased as a percentage of total residents with time (in absence of further expansion) - when I closed up last year, I estimate that about 75% of residents in the sims had been with me for over a year, and 20% for over 6 months.



I couldn't agree more; the $/hr of effort is uber low. Anyone doing it for money alone will is in for a rude awakening; there are much easier ways to make money.



Agreed, Prok has been very successful on the maindgrid. I don't think his success is the reason that no 'purchase' fees are paid on the maingrid though, I think it's simply because estate land has that little 'buy' button - a powerful tool in perception creation.

I've lost similar sums in SL due to placing a little too much trust in late payers here and there, and I agree. US$100 may not be pennies, but it's nothing compared to the hassle associated with trying to recoup it. It's just one of those situations where you have to take it on the chin and walk away a little bit wiser.

I did those two things before buying. Plus, I spent several weeks searching through land and talking to sellers before buying.

I really would like to know what I did wrong so I don't make the same mistake in the future. If I can get helpful advice along those lines, I would appreciate it. However, if your point is that I'm just a victim of my own stupidity, okay, fine, point made.

No you weren't stupid Amity, just a little unfortunate. The only advice I can really give you is to do a little research on the landlord/lady of any land you are interested in. Whether we like it or not, most of these agreements are based on trust, and so the reputation of the land owner is all important.

If this experience has 'burnt' you a little too much to consider something similar, don't forget you can always purchase land on the main grid, where your only landlord is LL.

I don't think you did anything wrong. But I can say as a scripter, I dont' trust scripts to handle my financials in SL. Trusting a box for something so important is risky. I would do as many do, they pay, but they also follow it up with an IM "I'm now paying my tier etc, etc." That way I can go check, and if that doesn't match up with what I see on my transaction history, we can discuss what went wrong. Really, the key is communication, on both sides. I never pull a plot until I get a firm idea of what is going on, there is too much room for confusion, and I think that is where this Landowner went wrong, he was hasty and made assumptions. If I am unable to get any response from a tenant, I usually will wait up to two weeks (!) before taking action. This is not good financially for me, but it is good ethically. I make every possible effort to ensure I'm not pulling the proverbial rug out from under someone. But let me be clear, I could leave all 6 of my sims empty for the next 5 years if I wanted, I do well enough in SL and outside of SL. I started my sims for one reason, and that is to give people an affordable deal in a nice surrounding, with people of like minds as your neighbors. I'm quite proud of what I have accomplished, and I'm just getting started. But I digress...

So if you take anything away from this, it should be to keep a verbose dialog going with your estate owner, don't rely on the scripts to do the talking for you . If they are serous about running a good estate and taking care of their tenants, they will bend over backward to ensure things go smoothly. But I'm not saying be a nag

I agree with Darien.

I think that the sim owner was a little too anxious to reclaim the land, especially if they were aware of the first attempt to pay the tier.

Honestly, the person sounds like a noob - between the txt speak and the ill-advised business practice of taking the land without more dialogue, I think you are probably better off now not renting from them, and should search for a more reliable and reasonable estate owner if you still wish to find estate land.

It would depend on the laws for whatever court - and whatever jurisdiction. A contract does not need to mention legal expenses for you to be reimbursed for it ... I'm not even certain where it would need to be filed (there is a possibility you could file in the jurisdiction where you live - however, since this is an entirely new area - who knows).

No, its not practical (monetarily - and, at least in my opinion) to sue ... but it *is* a recourse ... and a response to your initial request for information. =)

Good luck to you ... and I sympathize. When a well known estate owner went from paypal to paying at a kiosk I soldl my land, and purchased mainland. I'm not able to be on daily - and when I am on, I'm not able to be on hours at a time ... so its just easier for me to have mainland now ... which by the way ... I have some for sale and it *is* waterfront - but - its much smaller than what you had!

Take care

Don't put words into my mouth, I never used the word stupidity.

I've suggested it before. Do a search on the owner's name on these forums, on the SLEX forums, and on other third party forums. Ask your potential neighbors. Find out how many sims the owner runs. Ask the Land Answers group in world. Read the covenant carefully...is it clear? Comprehensive? Sensible? I've read covenants that were so vague and rambling that I'd never deal with the person that wrote them. Read the owner's Profile.

Caveat emptor.

Amity's particular problem, however, is that she got caught in a change of island owners. An otherwise reputable? estate owner bailed and she inherited txt boi, who probably has no record to speak of. It's just unfortunate.

I understand the desire for security, but having had many a good experience on islands and several island owners, I would not disparage that system so much, so long as it is a straight weekly rental and not this "ownership" scheme.

I would hazard to say that the estate owners and other landlords who stick their necks out here in the forums are generally a safe bet because they care enough to educate, and know full well the import of putting your reputation on the line in forums such as these.

Atashi, just by being here in offical forums and participating is a *major* step forward with regard to reputation - far more than a lot of land barons of your estate size do. It shows you have invested your own personal reputation along with what business you are doing.



Hiro, I learned a lot from you, and yes by far the balance was quite positive. I didn't poke around your sims per se, I'd say the fact you existed at all, were able to give such a good deal and pretty much *do it yourself* was 80% of it. You, Prokofy, Anshe, Adam, Alliez - very much influenced primordial Caledon.

I didn't think to 'reclaim' parcels upon exit the way you and Alliez do, I was studying Anshe's methods (there is much to be said for her business skills). It actually took nearly two months for the huge waiting list to convince me not to feed free lots to the lucky first few, who would just gouge the rest of the list.



Indeed, scripted objects are horrific business tools. I don't want to come off too soft (lest nobody pay me on time!) but indeed, investigation and ethics are critical before you press the big blue reclaim button. And yeah, those time consuming investigations cost me hard USD in tier, big time.

There are three advantages to scripted meters, in spite of their problems.

1. They stop charging when the regions are down, saving a potential refund calculation for hundreds of tenants should the grid go wonky for a few days.

2. You can't get stung by a Paypal charge reversal, which in some areas is legal even 180 days after the fact.

3. Recording income for tax payments. This is longwinded, but having gone over it with my CPA, using $L and LindeX works out (in my case, in my state and country) a lot better than recording the Paypal transactions, all of which are reversible and disputable with almost no leg to stand on should they get pulled.

Darien I'm not like you, where I could float all my sims (5390 USD/mo tier) for five years, but hey, that's a wonderful situation you have. Presuming 6 sims at only 195/mo that's 1170 a month spent on SL out of your own pocket, or 70,200 USD over five years.

I don't personally doubt that you are doing so well (I own a California corporation myself, and have been a tech exec for long enough) but you must admit there's a credibility factor, even if your declaration is 110% true. Perhaps it's possible to publish a tax return or something as reference, I don't know.


Amity, you got burned, bad. Such things diminish all of us. I think what we are dealing with is a new reality in an anonymous world, and only now are we learning how to deal with it.

Clearly my regions don't sound like a solution for you (up-front fees), but perhaps one of the other estate owners in the thread could get you into a nice situation.

There *is* such a thing as fair dealing, honest, intelligent people on the grid, and they are here in great number. Good luck to you, sincerely - I think your next situation will be far far better.

Of course it would be insane to let 6 sims sit empty for 5 years. I'm simply stating i *could* do it, if I wanted to win a contest of who could let their sims sit empty the longest.

When you made this statement:
"I could survive without getting another penny from anybody until March. Could your landlord?"
It sounded like a challenge. So I wanted it known, it's a challenge I'm up to. I'll publish my tax return if you do.

Mmm, I didn't mean to be mean-spirited or challenging, although I can see where you are coming from.

My point is with regard to risk. A business model that clearly recoups costs and builds upon itself rapidly and transparently, is a lot more stable than one where it takes the better part of a year to recover sim cost. Let alone build up reserve tier.

So rather than needing to rely on "don't worry I'm well off" statements, a robust business model can be seen in operation every day on the grid.

I have no idea how you run and I hear you are pretty reputable - I'm not out to attack you.

I'm saying: there's a really good argument to be made for business models that, well, don't have to overcome huge mountains of debt in the beginning. Especially in regard to financial risk.

As for tax returns - I'm comfortable enough.

No offense taken. I suppose I do have a tendency for one upmanship, sometimes It's hard to keep my competitiveness in check. I could post my returns, but it would be rather unenlightening to the state of my SL affairs, I have never pulled a cent out. When it comes to keeping SL and RL seperate, I think that's especially true where the IRS is concerned. When the day comes and I decide to make SL my full time job, that will have to change, but for now, I think i'll veer left declare you winner of this game of virtual chicken