Ethical/Guideline question about photos

my gf and me went to have our pics taken by a photographer for profile and picks use.

some of her friends had their pics taken by the same photgrapher.

we paid for all the photos and received them.

this was awhile ago.

now we went back to have more photos taken and found ALL of our photos, dozens, are for sale in the photographer's gallery along with photos she took of other people.

is the photographer allowed to sell the photos of us we bought and paid for? if not, she won't take them down, what is our recourse?

posted by an alt for the victim(s)

I'm not absolutely sure in this case, but I would say you have no recourse, as LL does not get involved in resident disputes. However, your best bet would be to contact LL, describe the situation and see what happens.

In RL generally the photographer retains the rights without a contract.

Was there any mention up front of having/not having rights to do this? Even in RL, professional photographers will have a document that either states they are allowed to sell the photographics, or you have to state specially if they can not.

In any case, no real legal recourse in world - if the photos are not being used to harass, then LL will not get involved.

If you haven't clarified upfront that the photographer is not allowed to use the pictures, you'll have t assume that he retains all rights on the pictures he took, including, but not limited to the right to display, sell or modify.

Anyway, there is no legal system in SL, hence you don't have any recourse.

Take it as a lesson learnt: Next time, agree upfront on who may do what with the picture.

But keep in mind that next time you would not have any recourse either even if you had an agreement and the photographer would not stick to it. Welcome to SL!

Well, you can file a DMCA claim against the photographer. If you ordered the pictures and paid for them, they sound like a work-for-hire to me. In the normal course of business, when people are ordering photographs to be made for them, that's buying ownership and not mere use.

I doubt Linden Lab will take any action, because it is something that would require investigation. They'll take the easy way out and check things like texture ownership and upload dates, then give up.

You would have legal options, but as always with Second Life, they aren't worth the time and effort.

Live and learn. Next time be clear up front what rights you have.

Edit: I looked at the U.S. Government's copyright website, and in fact I am wrong that this would be a work for hire. "Section 101 of the copyright law defines a 'work made for hire' as: (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or, (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned ... if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire." Without that express agreement, your photographer appears to be within her rights. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

ya i think they would have to buy the creation rights..it's art like anything else and commission work the creator still holds rights..

if i design and build a custom home for someone..they own the home but i created the plans and can use those for future work or to display as part of my portfolio..
unless they decide to lock it off so nobody else will have a house like theirs and buy the rights to the plans as well..

I really don't get why folks bother with 'photographers' in SL? Isn't it a bit like calling in a chef to whip you up a sandwich in your own kitchen?

Money for old rope, I have to say.

Some of us are not artistically talented or have no Photoshop skills (or no Photoshop) or are color blind or all of the above but still would like to have something better than a casual snapshot of themselves for display.

And people in RL do sometimes hire personal chefs.

Ponces! Ephraim Kappler roars laughing.

But seriously: I would have thought a nicely chosen pose, a bit of play with the camera and the snapshot button must be one of the most basic creative activities anyone could pull off in SL?

Sorry this happened, however, if it makes you feel any better I'd never consider buying a photo of another avatar. I bet very few people would. Seems rather pointless to even try and sell them, at least to me.

thats true..the only reason i could see them on a wall was to show their past work..selling them unless they do look like nice pieces of work does seem pointless..

they may just be testing to see if they sell also..but i just don't see a market for that kind of thing..

or maybe it gives the people that bought them a chance to come back if they somehow lose theres and grab another copy..who knows lol

If you think an SL photo taken that way is the same quality as an SL photo that has been touched up by playing with the lighting effects and/or using photoshop or a similar graphic image manipulation program then your level of visual perception is probably among one of the classes of folks that CarlCorey mentioned before.

This is for a profile picture, right? First question that comes to my mind is why would you "hire" someone to take those pictures in the first place? A tiny picture on a profile that perhaps one in twenty people will ever see in the first place.....a picture that is perhaps one of the easiest things to do in SL. Second question is since the photographer took the picture and obviously saved to his/her personal hard drive for editing what rights do you envision you might have to something that the photographer has that is not (and never was) in your possession until he uploaded it for you?. He/she owns the digital rights to it.....pure and simple. And, furthermore, the photographer can set the permissions on the uploaded pictures so you have no (I repeat, NO) rights to the image except the ones he/she chose to allow. DMCA's won't do you a damned bit of good. Unles, of course, you somehow have digital rights to your personal avatar...........which, as I understand, only Linden Lab has.

Feel wronged? I'm afraid you'll have to get over it.

As a model, I'll be happy to show you the difference

A photo taken by me, using a photostudio, and no Photoshopping:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/honeybearlilliehook/3244950639/

A photo taken by a photographer, and Photoshopped:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/honeybearlilliehook/3255622234/

Are you sure they were selling the pics and not just displaying them to show off their past work? That would be very bizarre to sell(or buy) some stranger's avatar picture....

Oh gees......

I do lots of profile pics for people.....I would never even think to sell shots of other avatars (who the heck would buy that? lol) but I used to have some of my fave works on display at my gallery.....just as a representation of the kind of work I do.

But....beyond that....I also always respected people and let them know I would be displaying my favorites......and sometimes posting on flickr. Noone has ever minded that. The other thing I don't do is charge out the A$$ for a few photos... I enjoy doing it....I love the different challenges people have given me with their requests.....and I simply don't see the justification for over charging.
And as a result of operating that way....I always ended up getting paid way more then I ever expected. So.....as a photographer.....my first priority is always making the customer happy.....and I think any professional (I use that term loosely in SL lol) should have the courtesy and respect to let their clients know how/if they intend use the images they take. It's just basic courtesy.....and that nearly always gets rewarded favorably.

O.K. I had the same thing happen to me in the worst way.

The person took my pic. Then photoshopped it and sold it in their gallery and sold a RL copy to Philip Linden, which ended up on the office walls of LL back in 03.

I never saw a cent of that or gave any such authorizations, and this happened right after we declared to have digital rights over our avatars/creations and such.

Maybe you need to trademark yourself or something...I don't know. But i doubt this type of stuff will ever stop.

Oh, and i was not even given a full perm copy of the final product.

Have you even tried talking to the photographer yet?

You don't have any legal recourse...but if you politely tell her that you object to your likeness being put up for sale, she might be nice and take them down.

Now don't tease: you know perfectly well what I mean.

The previous posters are correct that, without any sort of work-for-hire agreement, the photographer does maintain copyright to his or her work.

However, just for fun, try asking him for a signed copy of your model release...

Someone exercising professionalism doesn't leave clients with nasty surprises. A professional photographer should know the business of photography better than the client, and thus explain the business to the client. So a professional should explain, for example, that she retains rights to the photographs unless the client purchases them completely. And sometimes that explanation is the standard contract that one executes with each client.

In Second Life, most Second Life businesses are not run by professionals, but hobbyists making a little money. They may not have enough professional experience to anticipate every future problem, or develop standard contracts or methods of finalizing business.

And considering that most Second Life businesses are operated by people who are making less than U.S. minimum wage based if you divide the money they make by the hours they expend, you probably wouldn't expect a high degree of professionalism in dealing.

It's not that people are dishonest or incompetent, but they just don't have the experience and training to operate with a high degree of professionalism in a specific field. How does one necessarily know what is ethical in a particular field if one doesn't have a lot of experience in that particular field?

It just may not have occured to your photographer that you'd have a problem with her selling the photos she took of you.

After all, we have the snapshot button right on our screens. Linden Lab encourages taking snapshots of everything in Second Life early and often, and sharing with others.

Maybe there *should* be a consumer group or a Better Business Bureau in SL for residents to register a complaint in. There might not be a legal recourse but at least other residents could check there first, before hiring someone.

And as in RL, the business could register their reply there too.

Anyone can start a group. Maybe the OP and his/her friends can do this and feel better as a result.

(PS it may be 'legal' but I think re-selling people's photos without their permission let alone their knowledge, is tacky. Let the merchant take still life photos in SL if they want but then I guess the creator of that sim or object should give permission too.) (PS the time tag says 1 in the morning? It is several hours wrong.)

I don't think anyone here has proven the photographer is selling the photos. The OP made that assumption but has yet to give any proof to anyone of us here.

Though I'm in favor of some way for residents to publically warn others of fraud or wrong doing of businesses within SL, comments like the above sure does point out a very big (and potentially dangerous) flaw in any such "group".........make an accusation and then it's up to the accussed to prove it's false or unwarrented. Any group would have to do as the BBB does.........INVESTIGATE. And that would near impossible in an anonymous world such as SL.

this reminds me of the photographer that was supposed to take pics for bri and i, took our money, didnt deliver the product, then actually rezzed our wedding invitation (that she had nothing to do with) in her wedding invitation shop!
i was so pissed with her... 2 weeks later a search for either her name, business name. or 'wedding photos' and associated terms returned MY creatively named parcels and classifieds.
and i left them that way for MONTHS. hit the fucker where it hurts.