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Purged of Intellectual Property... Is this fair?!

Mickey Vandeverre
See you Inworld
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 2,542
10-21-2009 10:26
From: Desmond Shang
Not to overstate the obvious, but, it's not fair that accounts which have never paid for premium services didn't get purged, while premium accounts apparently did.

That's messed up.

And it was changed.

But Chance got caught up in it anyway.


Last I checked, when doing good business the customer is a pretty important guy.


Are you still a premium "customer" if you stop paying?
VonGklugelstein Alter
Bedah Profeshinal Tekstur
Join date: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 808
10-21-2009 10:28
From: LittleMe Jewell


When using the Service, you may accumulate Content, Currency, objects, items, scripts, equipment, or other value or status indicators that reside as data on Linden Lab's servers. THESE DATA, AND ANY OTHER DATA, ACCOUNT HISTORY AND ACCOUNT NAMES RESIDING ON LINDEN LAB'S SERVERS, MAY BE DELETED, ALTERED, MOVED OR TRANSFERRED AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON IN LINDEN LAB'S SOLE DISCRETION.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, NOTWITHSTANDING ANY COPYRIGHT OR OTHER RIGHTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS YOU CREATE USING THE SERVICE, AND NOTWITHSTANDING ANY VALUE ATTRIBUTED TO SUCH CONTENT OR OTHER DATA BY YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY, LINDEN LAB DOES NOT PROVIDE OR GUARANTEE, AND EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (SUBJECT TO ANY UNDERLYING INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS IN THE CONTENT), ANY VALUE, CASH OR OTHERWISE, ATTRIBUTED TO ANY DATA RESIDING ON LINDEN LAB'S SERVERS.

YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT LINDEN LAB HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY CONTENT (INCLUDING YOUR CONTENT) IN WHOLE OR IN PART AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND.
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that fixes all kinds of things, basically you own nothing except your dollar balance if you have one.. the rest can be deleted at will.

Half of the TOS breaks some kind of US law but this one is undeniable - all your Bases belongs to THEM!
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LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
10-21-2009 10:32
From: VonGklugelstein Alter
that fixes all kinds of things, basically you own nothing except your dollar balance if you have one.. the rest can be deleted at will.

Half of the TOS breaks some kind of US law but this one is undeniable - all your Bases belongs to THEM!
Yep. They have been sued and lost over the very issue of not giving someone access to their stuff, but I imagine that the average Joe cannot afford such a lawsuit just to get back a bunch of lost inventory.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 10:34
From: VonGklugelstein Alter
that fixes all kinds of things, basically you own nothing except your dollar balance if you have one.. the rest can be deleted at will.

Half of the TOS breaks some kind of US law but this one is undeniable - all your Bases belongs to THEM!


Evidence that half the TOS breaks some kind of law? And yes it is true that we don't own anything in LL but our dollar balance. Can you show me any MMO where that is not true? (not going to get into the "is it a game or not" for our purposes it is a MMO) I guess LL could put all his pixels in a jar and mail them to him.
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Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
10-21-2009 10:36
The first time i heard a premium had gotten their account deleted and then someone told me that if they were basic they never would have..My jaw dropped to the floor..I mean i felt like i had just heard one of the most stupidest things i had ever heard before..
There really is no good reason to be a premium after hearing that..There is more incentive to stay away from it as far as what i can see..
Unless you are owning islands
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-21-2009 10:51
From: Mickey Vandeverre
Are you still a premium "customer" if you stop paying?


Well, put it this way, it's about five times easier to retain prior customers than it is to get new ones, in just about every industry.

And negative experiences get repeated maybe ten times more often than good ones.

There's no "win" here.

Yeah, I have customers, to not put too fine a point on it, leave my estate now and then by simply not paying. Sometimes they just abandon and watch more cable TV, or maybe they went to the hospital, or maybe their dog died.

Doesn't matter.

There are very few customers who quit for a while, that I wouldn't welcome back.

At 100k+ USD annually, all the freebie players are making their free phone calls, getting their free data storage, and all that wonderful stuff, off the backs of those who pay the bills. In some part off the residents on my estate.

And ya know, I can see how allowing some people in free like that has merit. I really do.

But to hurt Chance like this is just stupid. I think even the Company knows its a messed up situation and would help him if they could.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 10:56
From: Desmond Shang

Yeah, I have customers, to not put too fine a point on it, leave my estate now and then by simply not paying. Sometimes they just abandon and watch more cable TV, or maybe they went to the hospital, or maybe their dog died.

Doesn't matter.




Yes, but do you let them leave their prims on your estate? Or do you send them back?
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Starfire Desade
Can I play with YOUR mind
Join date: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 404
10-21-2009 11:21
From: Mickey Vandeverre
Basic account = you're storing your stuff for free in your cousin's barn. Odds are it will be there when you come back in a year, maybe not.

Premium account = you contracted with a storage company for climate controlled storage, and some extra perks. If you don't pay, your stuff will be auctioned off. You signed a paper explaining this in detail.

If you don't want to pay or don't want to lose your stuff (probably)....then store it in your cousin's barn.


This isn't the same... you are storing your stuff in the climate controlled storage in both instances. Only one person pays for storage and will lose it if they forget to pay, and one person gets to leave it there as long as they want.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 11:27
From: Starfire Desade
This isn't the same... you are storing your stuff in the climate controlled storage in both instances. Only one person pays for storage and will lose it if they forget to pay, and one person gets to leave it there as long as they want.
No, one of you is paying for permission to call the manager's phone number, tokens for the game room, and the ability to rent extra space. When that person doesn't pay for a couple months, they are using services without paying for them.
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Mickey Vandeverre
See you Inworld
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 2,542
10-21-2009 11:31
From: Chris Norse
No, one of you is paying for permission to call the manager's phone number, tokens for the game room, and the ability to rent extra space. When that person doesn't pay for a couple months, they are using services without paying for them.


And my friends are renting the rest of the storage block with perks. I'm going to mention to them that I didn't pay for a month, and I got my stuff auctioned off. Bummer.
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-21-2009 11:39
From: Chris Norse
Yes, but do you let them leave their prims on your estate? Or do you send them back?


Totally inappropriate analogy. The cost of maintaining his inventory is peanuts for LL, whereas it's backbreaking for a landlord.

Especially when they maintain the inventory of multiple millions of free accounts, but would wipe the maybe 10 or 20 thousand lapsed premium accounts (I don't think there are even 100,000 premiums).

It's ridiculous.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 11:43
From: Desmond Shang
Totally inappropriate analogy. The cost of maintaining his inventory is peanuts for LL, whereas it's backbreaking for a landlord.

Especially when they maintain the inventory of multiple millions of free accounts, but would wipe the maybe 10 or 20 thousand lapsed premium accounts (I don't think there are even 100,000 premiums).

It's ridiculous.


The principle is the same, theft of services is theft of services.

So he should pay no penalty for the theft of services he committed?
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Argent Stonecutter
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Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
10-21-2009 11:49
From: Chris Norse
Yes, but do you let them leave their prims on your estate? Or do you send them back?
Linden Labs only lets you "leave your prims on the estate" if you weren't paying but just mooching around on the sandbox. Tell me that's not messed up and I'll call you a liar.
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Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
10-21-2009 11:56
From: Chris Norse
The principle is the same, theft of services is theft of services.

So he should pay no penalty for the theft of services he committed?

Exactly what service with regards to inventory has been stolen? There is no theft of services as a premium account has no added inventory features over a basic account.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 11:57
From: Argent Stonecutter
Linden Labs only lets you "leave your prims on the estate" if you weren't paying but just mooching around on the sandbox. Tell me that's not messed up and I'll call you a liar.

The issue isn't is premium vs. basic. The issue is that the OP agreed to a contract and continued taking the services he agreed to pay for after he stopped paying. It doesn't matter what deal LL has with the "mooches", LL had a deal with the OP and he broke it. All he had to do was drop down to basic or pay his bill. He chose to do neither.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 12:00
From: Milla Janick
Exactly what service with regards to inventory has been stolen? There is no theft of services as a premium account has no added inventory features over a basic account.



The account is a whole. You rent an apartment from me, you stop paying rent and leave your belongings in my apartment for two months. They are then mine to do with what I want, sell them, junk them or use them myself.
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Mickey Vandeverre
See you Inworld
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 2,542
10-21-2009 12:05
From: Desmond Shang
Totally inappropriate analogy. The cost of maintaining his inventory is peanuts for LL, whereas it's backbreaking for a landlord.

Especially when they maintain the inventory of multiple millions of free accounts, but would wipe the maybe 10 or 20 thousand lapsed premium accounts (I don't think there are even 100,000 premiums).

It's ridiculous.


OK, try this analogy.

I'm headed out to put a notice to quit on a RL tenant's door. He knew the rules, and signed them. Hopefully, there is no other spam on his door today, so that the notice does not get lost, or if he were wise, he would check all spam on his door, or review the current lease for ramifications.

He will have two more weeks to make good. He's already had two weeks, as the economy was considered, and the cost of replacing him was considered.

But his friends are renting some other houses, and they consistently pay on time. If they find out that you can go a month without paying, with no ramifications.....then no reason for them to pay either. Yes, it will cost to replace him....and that cost will affect the other tenants, as they will receive no additional perks or upgrades for the next six months.

I have a friend occupying a vacant house for free, just to keep it occupied. He gets no perks, whatsoever, but he is welcome to store his stuff there, for appearance sake, which does me a favor. (concurrency/population appearance). Yeah - it costs a little wear and tear on the house....but not the same effect as having all tenants with perks suddenly stop paying, and having to cover their ass for a number of months.
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-21-2009 12:08
Things didn't work this way in 2003.

If we want to get technical, persistent data storage during the time Chance was here, back in the day, was really, really spotty. The agreements he clicked through at that time were radically different, and didn't have all the wiggle room clauses either.

So from Chance's perspective, if you want to be a purist like that, the deal Chance agreed to was changed radically, and furthermore, he didn't click through on the agreements to it.

At which point, were this a significant case (and in the grand scheme of things, it's not) ~ but if it were a significant case, the automatic destruction of Chance's assets wouldn't go down very well in a trial seeking justice.

Chance didn't steal anything. He just didn't pay, or use the service, or even agree to the updated terms. Huge difference.
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Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
10-21-2009 12:11
From: Chris Norse
The account is a whole. You rent an apartment from me, you stop paying rent and leave your belongings in my apartment for two months. They are then mine to do with what I want, sell them, junk them or use them myself.

Second Life accounts are free (or $9.95 in the OP's case, which was paid for six years ago). The premium membership is an enhancement to it. There is no theft of services regarding inventory.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-21-2009 12:12
And Mickey, to try your analogy... that's just terrible business.

I've been in the estate business a long time, and giving one guy a freebie house while making another pay, then, thowing him out (!) ... no. It's just plain crazy and unfair.

Estates need to be run as transparently as possible, or residents (customers!) will feel cheated and mistreated. And you better believe it will get out, if you ever do stuff like that.
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Chris Norse
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Join date: 1 Oct 2006
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10-21-2009 12:13
From: Desmond Shang
Things didn't work this way in 2003.

If we want to get technical, persistent data storage during the time Chance was here, back in the day, was really, really spotty. The agreements he clicked through at that time were radically different, and didn't have all the wiggle room clauses either.

So from Chance's perspective, if you want to be a purist like that, the deal Chance agreed to was changed radically, and furthermore, he didn't click through on the agreements to it.

At which point, were this a significant case (and in the grand scheme of things, it's not) ~ but if it were a significant case, the automatic destruction of Chance's assets wouldn't go down very well in a trial seeking justice.

Chance didn't steal anything. He just didn't pay, or use the service, or even agree to the updated terms. Huge difference.

If he didn't like the new terms he had the option to not use the service. Did he keep accepting the stipend? Logged in or not, he was using the service, using it without paying for it is stealing. It all comes down to Chance being either lazy or careless.
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Chris Norse
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Join date: 1 Oct 2006
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10-21-2009 12:15
From: Milla Janick
Second Life accounts are free (or $9.95 in the OP's case, which was paid for six years ago). The premium membership is an enhancement to it. There is no theft of services regarding inventory.


And that account as a whole agreed to a contract. When he broke that contract, the whole account was in default.
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Chris Norse
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Join date: 1 Oct 2006
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10-21-2009 12:17
From: Desmond Shang
It's just plain crazy and unfair.

.


We have already established that life isn't fair.
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Argent Stonecutter
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10-21-2009 12:18
From: Chris Norse
The issue isn't is premium vs. basic.
That's precisely the issue. Linden Labs penalizes paying customers, and rewards vagrants. This discourages people from being paying customers. This discourages people from doing business with Linden Lab. This discourages people from paying Linden Labs money.

It's like, you give people apartments for free, and about ten percent of them rent a penthouse. If the guy in the penthouse misses a payment, you throw all his stuff out, but the other tenants in the building who are costing you just as much, you leave their stuff alone as long as they want.

It's crazy. Linden Lab has the RIGHT to be crazy, but they're still crazy. They are not acting in their own best interests. They are discouraging paying customers. This is not sensible behavior.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
10-21-2009 12:20
From: Argent Stonecutter
That's precisely the issue. Linden Labs penalizes paying customers, and rewards vagrants. This discourages people from being paying customers. This discourages people from doing business with Linden Lab. This discourages people from paying Linden Labs money.

It's like, you give people apartments for free, and about ten percent of them rent a penthouse. If the guy in the penthouse misses a payment, you throw all his stuff out, but the other tenants in the building who are costing you just as much, you leave their stuff alone as long as they want.

It's crazy. Linden Lab has the RIGHT to be crazy, but they're still crazy. They are not acting in their own best interests. They are discouraging paying customers. This is not sensible behavior.



No, it penalizes deadbeat customers who break the contract they agreed to honor.
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