Hypothetical TOS Game

OK, I'd like to play an hypothetical game as a way of asking a question about a TOS issue that is a little unclear to me. You'll all recall a few months back when Marianne had some peculiar neighbors move in next door; relations were fairly strained before they ended up moving. In that case, Marianne was "living" on land owned by her parents (adult avs) in a Mature-rated sim on which sex venues are allowed; apparently the situation was legal as far as LL was concerned to long as the parties mutually agreed to take steps to avoid questionable situations.

My question is, what if it's difficult, or impossible, to take such steps?

Here is the dressing: Let's pretend LL has just put up some brand new mainland for sale. It's a Mature sim, lots of open land, guaranteed no ad farms (as per current policy), and the price is right! So I buy a 1024 plot and move in. I build basically a reproduction of the house I'm renting now, complete with all the furniture. For those of you who haven't been to my current house (this set should include all of you), it's a two-story modern affair with spiffy wood paneling and decent furniture. Here is the important thing to note: it's a very normal, average place. What I mean is, it doesn't LOOK like a kid's house. Clicking on my furniture will not bring up any menus with poses named after various animals; but aside from that, there's no way you could look at my house and furniture and tell, in my absence, that a child av lives there and owns everything in it. There aren't any toys or kid-themed items. OK, so there's some clothes thrown on the floor in my room, but that just indicates I'm male, not that I'm a kid.

OK, so I set my home to this plot and live there for a period - say 2 months. Slowly, other plots in the sim are bought up, with people building shops and other homes, and weird uncategorizable things. All fine and whatnot. Maybe some of them could be adult-oriented, but they're discreet about it and there are no issues whatsoever.

Now, say one day somebody buys a very significant amount of land adjacent to my plot, bordering it on, let's say, 2 or maybe even 3 sides. They've seen my house but haven't seen me, so they have no reason to assume a kid av lives there. The enterprising new landowner then proceeds to erect (no pun intended) a fairly large adult-themed club and store/mall. Let's say they've named the place something very obvious, like UltimateHornySexStoreMallEscortStripClubAdultWorldLand, and have huge signs posted, some of which overlook my little plot. Say the signs contain graphical images which contain no nudity (as that's not allowed in mature sims), but are ridiculously suggestive. Let's say that the club proper borders my land, and I can hear half of what is typed into chat there, whether it is shouted or not.

In other words, try to imagine a situation where this new landowner has developed his land in such a way that I could never, ever be on my property without exposing m....sorry, without BEING AROUND adult material. So that, if I'm standing on my roof, unless my camera is pointing north and only north (for instance), any picture I take of myself is going to have mature-themed matter or signage in it. Anybody could take a picture of me in my yard and AR me as being at an adult establishment.

What recourse do I have? Am I even entitled to recourse? I was there first, and I'm a kid av...but he owns more land, and it's a mature sim. His build is so massive there's nothing he could easily do to "hide" its adult nature from my plot - and anyway, after I try to talk with him, he mutes me and bans me from his parcel (as if!). Could I AR his signs? They're not fully explicit, and (again) it's a mature sim. Should I have to put up huge, ugly, stupid screens? Suppose my plot is between his and a Linden road, and my screens block his "legitimate self-advertizing"? I've read threads that have told of landowners being AR'd by adfarmers for harassment after putting up screens to block their ads. Could a store/club owner do the same thing if I block his signs? Should I just say "screw" it, sell the land, and move to a new plot in a different sim, and wait for the whole thing to happen again? Is that the "noble" thing to do?

The thing is, we've got two conflicting types of RP basically impinging on one other, a conflict that unfortunately isn't resolved by settling for the "you stay on your plot and I'll stay on mine" truism. Where does my right to what I want to be and do end, and his begin?

Say, after he buys his land, he meets me first, so he knows a kid av lives on that plot - and AFTERWARDS, he builds all this stuff. Does that change anything?

I'm interested in all points of view.

I'd say "it's your burden" because you choose to buy land on a mature sim even though your needs are strictly-PG.

If you were on a PG sim corner with mature sims all around and the same situation came up then LL is the ultimate culprit and it would be interesting to see how they'd handle that.

<<Based on experience>>

Any AR from that situation will hardly be taken seriously unless you have your pixelpants around your ankles, standing beside a poseball set, and a chat log of "c'mon, you wanna?" (=_=)

IF (and only if) an AR is taken seriously at all... You'll probably get an IM from the Linden responding to the AR. You'll have your chance to say "I'm on my parcel" and any further ARs from the original reporter can be best boiled down to harassment and AR abuse. (^_^)

And, if you want a better answer than most. Find a way to make the question more brief and take it to Socrates Linden on any given Saturday at 12-noon SLT. He "loves" kid avatar questions. (^_^)y

See, if it was Solomon Linden and not Socrates answering the kid question. I'd pay to be in the audience..

"Privacy" screens, done in such a way that it'd be a bit harder for people taking snapshots to include the club without a top-down view.. which again, would show that you are on a separate parcel.

That would be the only thing I can think of. The rest requires too much stock in the whims of LL.

Strictly speaking this is true - but it doesn't answer the question, which is how I should 'deal' with that burden. That it's a mature sim means nothing but that I cannot AR him just for putting up an adult business.

My concerns are the other, non-regulatory nuances of the situation. Yeah, he cannot be faulted for putting up an adult business on a mature sim - but on the other side of the coin, can -I- be faulted for using a kid av on this land just because it's rated mature? Mature land does not imply that there WILL be adult material on a sim; just that there COULD be. In my hypothetical scenario, there was no such material on the sim when I purchased the land - we could even say I was the first landowner in the sim. Despite having bought the land months earlier, would I, technically, become the "intruder" or the "antagonist" of a sort, the fellow on the moral and/or ethical low ground, once he decides to put up his club?

Well, I have no idea how LL would handle this situation, but here is "what I reckon" ...

* You could AR the signs as being against community standards:



so just because there is no nudity does not mean there is no sexual content.

* You could put privacy screens up. I was under the impression that the cases of people being AR'd by ad-farmers were when the ad-farmer owned the "hole" in a donut and the other landowner had blocked all 4 sides (I could be wrong).

* One or both of you could move upwards.

* You could move to a PG sim. This would not be a solution for a kid living with parents who wanted to have some mature content on their land, or for someone who was only a part-time kid.

BTW, Dakota, why do you have no toys? you poor child!

Not at all... That is... Until you walk into the club. (^_^)y

logicly I would say, as long as you stay on your own parcel you have nothing to worry about, in case of an ar from someone the g-team will check out the actual situation and see that your own land is not violating any rules, nowhere in the TOS or the clarivication on the sexual ageplay rules does it say you can't be on a mature sim as a child av, heck I can be on the same parcel as my sl parrents doing the dirty without being in violation offcourse in that case I will have to be out of earshot so it is clear I'm not involved with what they are doing, afterall near in SL is defined as chatrange what is 20meters.

offcourse this is all IMHO and YMMV.

I really don't think you can be faulted for staying in that parcel as a kid av, even if there's all kinds of adult stuff happening within earshot.

But it would be uncomfortable for you and your guests, so it's not a satisfactory situation. It would be wrong to impose non-M restrictions on a neighbor just because a resident is engaging in non-M role play.

This is the same reason that Goreans have their own sims, or keep Gor at very high altitudes. (Not quite the other side of the sun, but... nevermind. )

So I think you get to move, either up or out.

To my way of thinking, if a kid av buys land in a Mature sim, they expose themselves to anything that might occur. It's not the responsibility of others in a mature sim to tailor what they do to suit kid roleplayers, regardless of who was there first. Behind every kid av there is a grown up person, so no kids are going to be exposed to anything unsuitable and, as long as everyone stays within the ToS, there is no problem. Remember that other people can't be forced to play a kid's roleplay game.

Slight clarification: I own that land, having bought it from my mommy almost two years ago.

And yes, it's not likely you'll face trouble unless you walk into that parcel and do lotsa other stuff. Possible, sure - but the likelihood is so so low. If you are particularly concerned (as I was in my situation), I'd ask a Linden to review it at the GTeam's office hours.

Mari

'kid av" here is just representative of "an av whose nature is diametically opposed to the neighbors roleplay". My question isn't whether, being a kid av, I deserve "protection" from adult oriented material. Of course I don't.

Let's add to the hypothetical scenario a third digressive branch. Suppose everything stays the same, except that I am an adult av and vehemently opposed to depictions of sex, which is why I chose to buy land in a new sim way from any (so-called) "mature" activity. Perhaps there is no PG land available, or it is beyond my means.

Let's be forthright: does the fact that most sims are mature by default mean that in Second Life in general, the rights of those who wish to roleplay sexual situations take precedence over the rights of those who wish to be free from such roleplay? While somebody who moves in next to a space I've occupied for a time and decides to put up a strip club around my parcel "does not have to" alter his roleplay because of me, it seems that I'm very clearly expected to alter my roleplay because of him. I'm asking whether that is just a false perception on my part, or if it isn't, whether it's fair.

I don't believe either party is "expected" to alter their role play because of the other. What you do on your land is entirely up to you and the same with them.

You can put up screens to block your view of their content if necessary but carry on with your own RP as you see fit.

I think anyone that would be that offended by depiction of sexual content would or should just hold out until PG-land becomes available rather than being impatient and buying into a M region where anything can, and probably will, happen.

As to AR potential, I would say that Marianne and Imnotgoing are right on the money with their posts.

In a case like that, I can only offer the simple advice to buck up and deal with it. If you can't, don't... If you do, don't be surprised. I'm almost reminded of people who buy houses near railroad tracks because of the low price, then constantly complain to the RR, police, city, etc... about the noise. (=_=)y

Seems to me we're paying special attention to sex here, and maybe that's the point, but I'm not sure "M" and "PG" are even essential to what's really at issue.

Say I role play some group that objects to dancing and card-playing on the Sabbath. Next to me opens a ballroom dancing school, and on the other side, bridge-players of SecondLife. Now, why should I expect that the demands of my role play should even be a consideration for the dancing students and card players?

If there really is intended to be some special consideration because the topic is sex... I guess I don't know why. (And if so, out of curiousity, whether it applies to the other supposed discriminant of PG and M: violence.)

The puzzles of morality and who is justified to do what in this situation cannot possibly be universally solved, mankind tried for thousands of years and see where it ended up. The only reasonable discussion can be a strategic one, answering a question of which is a better course of action given your priorities.

And assuming your priorities are "not to be exposed to mature themes" and "not to incur expenses related to moving" (and maybe, "not to inconvenience my neighbours unduly" if you're a reasonable kid) the optimal course of action depends on which is higher. Either you move away to a PG place where exposure is minimized through applicable rules, or you try and wall yourself off and tell them to ...ahem... go have sexual intercourse with each other and never mind you. Whether it is moral to wall them off or complain about them, or whether it is moral for them to build something like this is of no consequence, what matters is which has a better chance to satisfy most of your priorities while hurting least of theirs. (Because hurting other's priorities invites opposition.)

Me, I would probably move, in the long run it trades me money and a few days of effort for peace of mind, and peace of mind is far more expensive.

P.S. I'm still looking for an Escort Aircraft Carrier CVL "Adult". With a landing strip. Love them keywords...

I'd find that new build annoying even if the guy was selling puppies and gardenias. Would these sort of issues not be settled far more easily by using mainland zoning laws similar to RL? Ie. residential zones for homes, commercial zones for businesses. Even a small themed village could be sorted out that way.

Based on my observations, people use TP to go to various locations. They don't use the roads or walk randomly through neighborhoods in the hopes of finding a puppy shop. So why deface the landscape with the sort of ads the OP describes? Again, no difference if you're selling sex or shoes.

I'd move just because of the blight, not any ARable offences. Of course, like Cody said, it could just happen again.

As stated before, as long as you maintain your own roleplay (which is to say, stay out of the strip club - don't even cam in there!) it's hard to see how you are being expected to change. It was stated before, and I have to agree, the original "fault" is yours for buying in an environment which you *know* could be contrary to your roleplay. If and when that happens, it's up to you to deal with it however you need to. Ignore, move out, or move upwards. Yes, the TOS is seemingly flawed, self inconsistent, and easily abused, but you also knew that before moving into mature land. Theoretically, of course. Mature mainland is a free-for-all. It seems to me that PG land is necessary if you want lasting peace, or at least a compatible estate rental.

because nobody would AR a kid avatar next to ballroom dancing poseballs. To the best of my knowledge, LL have said nothing about kid avatars near violent content.

If I understand correctly, Dakota's question was not to do with finding sexual content morally objectionable, it was to do with covering his backside against possible, if unlikely, ARs.

The TOS/community standards state, IIRC, that mature content should be kept out of sight behind walls, even on mature sims. If this was enforced, there would be no problem, but as it isn't, a PG sim would be the safest option.

Oh. Perhaps I misunderstood: I was responding to the "digressive" case where an adult AV was objecting to the content.

If the question is really about AR vulnerability for a kid AV, and the problem is that the content is just out in the open... I should think that just ARing that content would indemnify the child AV from any subsequent ARs for hanging out in the middle of a bunch of naughty poseballs, even if the AR against those poseballs was never acted on.

But... I'm not sure exactly which hypothetical (or actual?) case we're discussing anymore, so... just ignore me.

...which brings us to the real problem of people ARing kid avatars for no good reason and at the same time, letting real kids wander around the main grid.

Seems like this would be an interesting situation if it was Furs vs Gors. While the furs might never WANT to venture into the gorean land, the goreans attracted to the other land might take potshots at the furs who were on their own land, doing nothing.

This is not a situation that is going to end well. He's already muted you... so your only positive options are to cry to the cops, or find a better place to live. Sticking it out is only going to create stress for you, and possible drama when/if the AR's come.

The Lindens have talked about zoned sims coming soon.. including RESIDENTIAL sims. What I would suggest, is talking to those "concierge" and "G-Team" people... explain the situation you're in, and ask them if there's some way that you can reserve a plot on one of the coming residential sims, and trade your land to Gov Linden, for the new parcel. I dunno if you're willing to spend more money to solve this...

In the meantime, unfortunately, the best thing you can do is either put up a wall.. or move your house to a platform in the sky. You might want to go the extra step of erecting banlines for everyone except those you invite to your land... or put up a sort of "websnare" invisible volume-detect sensor wall, that when people walk through it, it warns them of the RP "zone" they are entering/leaving. At the very least, if they've got a doorway facing your land, I'd definitely put up a brick wall.

As to ARing the signs, you could give it a try.. but as has been said before, you did CHOOSE Mature land. There's plenty of PG land for sale in SL. Assuming you're not also using an adult Av in the same house to do adult things, I can't really understand why you would have chosen Mature land in the first place.

*I* have adult avs, child avs, teen avs, robot avs, furry avs, etc.. So "Mature" land is appropriate for me. I do both Mature and PG things. But if your avatar is a "PG Lifestyler" then why do you want Mature land?

A lot of good replies here, but my money's on Rika for the win.

Cody, my young friend...
a) what was your mommy thinking, letting you buy land on a Mature sim. Surely she knew what kind of things can go on in those places!
b) How come you have your own house? Where is your parental supervision? Don't you know you could get exposed to Bad Influences, like that awful Immy boy?
c) Now that you're there (hypothetically, of course), you can deal with it in any way that seems good to you...stay put and tolerate the rude neighbors, relocate upwards, or sell and move.
d) I don't think anyone is really "at fault" or has a superior position here.

Rika...are you really in/from Moscow? And, I love your Escort Carrier idea. Want to join Jig and me as a Camp Follower? You can handle Naval Affairs...

Yes to both.

And while I'm not up to joining anything, keywords continually strike me as amusing. But since I have stumbled on "gorean bookcase" and "gorean puppy groupsex" in keywords (I was looking for a bookcase and boots, respectively) I kind of gave up on search altogether.