Protection of Residents II

Greetings again,
I am looking for suggestions and guidance in my continuing efforts to create a semi private list of repeat predetors and con artists in SL that can be shared by me upon request by another resident.

While any list like this would be an unofficial list, such a list could possibly prevent a future crime, swindle or abuse.

I feel that a true need for a list such as this exists for a several of reasons:

1st..We as a community need to police ourselves to a reasonable extent. We can not expect LL to monitor every avie or location in Second Life. Nor, in all honesty, do we want them to.
2nd..Such a list could be an invaluable tool in certain RP situations where trust is paramount.
3rd.. We have a wonderful and ever expanding virtual world here! Many of our residents have helped to create a place where we can explore ourselves as well as the cultures of our fellow residents. Their investments in this world needed to be safe guarded from abuse.

To that end, I have created a group in SL called The Gray List for the Abused.

This group does not spam, nor do they actively promote that list. What they will do however, is to share their "personal opinions" and "selected items" for other residents in Second Life that may allow them an opportunity to protect themselves and their investments here in Second Life.

This group was my personal idea, however the funding for this group and for our land purchase was obtained from unsolicited donations from likewise concerned residents of Second Life.

If you would like to make suggestions, or comments that may assist this endevour, please post them here, or you may wish to contact me online.

This is "OUR" world! Let's make it a better place for all.

Have Fun!! Play Safe!! Merry Christmas!

And let the "he said, she said" finger pointing alt abuse begin...

Mmmm, second life McCarthyism. Yayzors.

Really, you have to be careful not to set yourself up for libel. That's a Bad Thing.

Just saying.

While you're feelings and ideas are perfectly understandable, it seems as if it would be very difficult to make this idea really work.

I think you're saying that if some one has been cheated you would put the cheater's name on your list to warn other people not to be similar victims. But how would you and the people you are warning know that it wasn't the person doing the complaining who was being dishonest?

If enough people contributed honestly to the list to make it really effective in stopping the people named from perpetrating future scams, wouldn't they just perpetrate them under different names?

I do think it would be helpful if the dangers were clearly spelled out to newcomers before they left the orientation areas.

This is not a good idea.

who will watch the watchers?

I too think this is a slippery slope that will definitely be abused if it ever comes to anything. Neg Rated.

can we add you to the list
or you can just get away with what ever you want?
and basicly you made your self police chief of SL
no election no accountability
now all we need is some one to say they are emperor of Sl and we all bow to him/her
maybe they can give us new gods too im sick of the Lindens they never answer my prayers

Every time something like this comes up in these forums it's the same people givng the same responses. Almost every post is negative and many make some rather derogatory comments about the OP for even trying to solve a problem that is quite literally out of hand. Not a single constructive comment that may make such an indeavor feasible. "It's a dog eat dog world and, by God, we like it that way" is the prevailing thought here.

This is actually something LL should be doing........not residents. But LL has a hands off attitude until something comes up that jolts them into something.......and most of the time that knee jerk reaction is worse than the original offence. So, what are we to do? Throw our collective arms in the air and give up? Attack the concerned for "just as bad or, even worse, than the offenders" that cause this problem? Snicker in the corner?

Surely there's a way.....like maybe some sort of "oversight". But, hey, let's not suggest anything constructive like that. That would be so against the Second Life way.

ok, no problem: I AM THE EMPORER, contact me inworld if you feel like bowing

Well then let´s be constructive:
GemJet, I love your ideas! Self-governance could be helpful and giving each other warnings about griefers is a great plan. Unfortunately there´s some concerns:

How do people get on that list? Who decides to put them there and what evidence leads to that decision? It can´t be chatlogs as me sending you a chatlog without the offender agreeing to it would get me in trouble (community standards...) and with all the griefers in SL I can´t imagine that they will be heared before being put on the list.

Who are the people in your group? Do you trust them enough to put people they name on your list? We have a group of some business owners, warning each other and although we know each other for quite a while abuse of the group has and probably will happen.


I feel that while every effort is a good plan and I do hope your idea works out - informing residents and victims on how to file abuse reports and mute people is the best. And showing LL that we need a bigger GTeam maybe

Now my suggestion would be that you create a forum for your group where you can host your list and discuss people that are on the list. I´m not sure but I guess it´s ok to name people that behave poor and describe what they did. And if it´s done in a transparent way maybe that helps against abuse...

But you didn't do any of this did you? Instead you posted:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightwave Valkyrie
now all we need is some one to say they are emperor of Sl and we all bow to him/her



ok, no problem: I AM THE EMPORER, contact me inworld if you feel like bowing "

Very constructive, huh?

Probably not, McCarthy was right, this is more in the line of witch hunts.

I think the point is that most believe that is not feasible to justly police SL by anyone but LL. Only they are qualified and have the right and that is because they own the platform and not because they have some moral fibre and fair judgment that others do not possess.
History has born out that lists of people held against them are inevitably abused and there are virtually no safeguards that cannot also be corrupted. A corrupted system is worse than no system at all as far as this is concerned.
I agree though that this could be put better to the OP.

Leave my Witches alone dammit.

Not me you have to worry about, I am an anarchist. You leave me alone, I don't care what you do. It is the statists that give us all problems.

Exactly

Since Linden Lab does not protect resident consumers in Second Life, it would be nice if the Second Life consumers themselves got together and found ways to protect themselves. To that extent, your suggestion of a such a list is a good one.

However, to be effective, the list has to be based upon reliable, trustworthy information. This is where most other lists of this nature fail.

Part of the reason is that it is just so hard to gather reliable information in Second Life. Part of the reason is that since Second Life residents are essentially anonymous, the anonymous residents are spared from personal loss of reputation and the embarassment of confrontation, and there is less pressure on residents to be truthful and accurate.

Aside from the inherent problems of gathering information in Second Life, the prospective creators of Second Life consumer protection lists, though with noble intent, do not have the training to establish procedures that will enhance the reliability and credibility of their lists. Plus, the reputation for accuracy of the list-keeper is extremely important, and if the list-keeper is anonymous (identified only by avatar, not by real life), it is extremely difficult to convince consumers that they can trust the list.

I would find great benefit in any source of consumer information in Second Life. I know I've been ripped off before for significant money, I'd hate to see others make the same mistakes I did. But I've never seen such a consumer-protection list that gave me enough information about the list itself- who keeps it, how it is kept, how information is gathered and verified- that I would consider trusting such a list.

So, the idea is good. However, implementing it with accuracy and credibility is a tall, tall order.

I say go for it... worst that can happen is that you'll end up on someone elses list.... it's just a list so who cares?

What exactly is the Question that you would like a Resident Answer for?

The conversation starts and ends here for me. As a Visitor to SL, just like any RL entertainment venue, it is not my responsibility to make sure people behave themselves. Sure, if someone is doing something wrong, I can call the nearest Security Guard , but that's about it. Leave me out of any Blacklists or Vigilante schemes. If LL can't be bothered to police their world, I sure won't.

I understand that sentiment. I actually find myself thinking much the same way. That does not make it right though. Everyone who's been in SL for 6 months or so knows there is a portion of the population who prey on the innocent...........and taking that "it's not my concern" attitude is exactly what makes all those schemes and rip offs possible in the first place. I agree any program residents attempt to impliment is taking on a huge, huge task.......and it would never be "game proof" itself. However, there are enough honest people in this world that if something could get some support from the residents that "gaming" of the system would be a lot harder to do.

But, as we can see from the posts so far in this thread, that support would never come about. And, to me, that says a lot about the residents of Second Life.......and it ain't exactly good either.

What would be the point of supporting a system type that has been shown historically to be very easy to abuse at worst and ineffectual at best? Except for stopping people getting access to land of those subscribing to the system (a la BanLink) what could any system possibly hope to do? They would be AR'd if they took other steps against anyone and LL would have to act as with any AR. If all it would achieve is the land banning then BanLink are already doing it and it is flawed both of the effectiveness score and the openness to abuse score which has been done to death in other threads and so I am not going into that here.
If anyone has the ability to do anything it is LL only and wishful thinking will not change that.

yet here you are actively promoting the group (which in turn will promote the list)....
(sharing is promoting... sharing the opinions, sharing the "items" whatever they are, and all that, is still sharing, promoting, etc

I don't think it is a good idea, too many bad things can happen (besides I have run into people who think they are "SL Police" and it is actually rather pathetic....


A "grey" list is right along the same lines...

What one person might consider list worthy, another person might just shrug off and walk away from...

a group like this... is just Drama waiting to happen

(then we will get the threads from those listed complaining they did nothing to deserve it, and what can they do etc)

One way would be for people to not let themselves be gamed. Are there crooks in SL. Yes. But just as in RL scams, some people allow themselves to be victimized, either through ignorance, greed, or a host of other factors. Of those, some deserve what they get, frankly. Of the innocents, it is miserably difficult to educate oneself about the pitfalls in SL, definitely. LL has be negligent in that area, as in most. And as individuals, it is a good idea to try to inform those we meet while using SL. But any organized effort along these lines will suffer the same failings as most RL attempts to do the same thing, and will turn into bothing but a tool for those with less than altruistic intentions, in my opinion.