Are temp rezzed structures allowed?
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VonGklugelstein Alter
Bedah Profeshinal Tekstur
Join date: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 808
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04-12-2009 06:19
I just bought a 512 to see what a building I made looks like in real virtual reality, and noticed that the house next door flickers like crazy.
Turns out the thing is temp rezzed at 241 prims plus another 81 regular prims on a 512..
Is this allowed?
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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04-12-2009 06:21
AR it.
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VonGklugelstein Alter
Bedah Profeshinal Tekstur
Join date: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 808
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04-12-2009 06:47
I am the last person to complain, just wanted to know if that is actually allowed.
I wrecked my brain to make a low prim build and ironically when I go to set it up.. I see this 322 shack on a 512 right next to it..
32 prim castle here - 322 prim garbage there - same size land.. just slightly curious
I would cover it with a megaprim before AR..lol
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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04-12-2009 06:50
Ultimately it is a detriment to everyone in that sim as it is constant performance hit on the server, coupled with whatever anyone else is doing and things just get worse.
But if you are not worrying about...
*shrug*
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Ghosty Kips
Elora's Llama
Join date: 2 May 2008
Posts: 2,386
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04-12-2009 06:52
Temp ressing is allowed, but not when it impacts sim performance to the point of the ridiculous ... and a flickering house certainly must qualify. AR it, as that will affect the whole region.
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VonGklugelstein Alter
Bedah Profeshinal Tekstur
Join date: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 808
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04-12-2009 06:56
thanks for the answers, I though so as I did notice some intermittent lag and there was really not much other action in the sim.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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04-12-2009 08:37
As the name implies, temp-rezzing is for *temporary* objects. Things like bullets ( so they don't lay around and waste prims after they hit something), fireflies that need to float around a bit and then vanish, or "holograms" of products being briefly displayed by a vendor system, so you can see the product better.
But temp-rezzing a whole building so it loops and is ALWAYS there means they are excessively using system resources that they are not paying for, and it always has a negative impact on the sim. Once a minute that rezzer forces the sim to re-create those 241 prims, just before the previous 241 prims self-delete. That places load on the server and on the asset servers far in excess of what is created by simply rezzing 241 prims one time, and leaving them in-world.
At one point it also meant that if the sim was nearly full, you would actually prevent others in the sim from being able to rez their own legitimate prims, because the temp-rezzed ones counted against the max for the sim, even though they didn't count against the parcel. But they fixed that glitch a while back.
I would still abuse report anyone who was temp-rezzing 241 prims constantly on a 512 M2 parcel, because they are making excessive use of sim resources. They are allowed 117 prims, no more.
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Jesse Barnett
500,000 scoville units
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 4,160
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04-12-2009 08:51
As a side note: There is a lot of fun to be had and added flexibility with a small 512 using "legitimate" rezzing. I rezzed a garden that everyone could use when I wasn't around. Rezzed a cottage or a skyhouse when it was desired. A simple sandbox in the sky to play in or even a sex dungeon when I was in that mood  None were temp on rez but there is nothing that says that your build has to be static. I haven't counted in a while but I must have 30+ complete builds/environments set up to be rezzed at a moments notice.
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
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04-13-2009 09:25
Temp rezzers have a place...to create schools of fish, or a field of grasses, for example. Or a different kind of temp rezzer to create a 3D demo of a product.
They have no business being used to "get around" parcel prim limits, especially for structures...because ultimately, they steal prims and script time from everyone else in the sim.
I'd AR it in a second.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 09:49
From: Lindal Kidd Temp rezzers have a place...to create schools of fish, or a field of grasses, for example. [...]
They have no business being used to "get around" parcel prim limits, especially for structures...because ultimately, they steal prims and script time from everyone else in the sim. If they have no business being used to get around prim limits for houses, then they have no business being used for schools of fish and fields of grass to get around prim limits. You can't have it both ways. Temp rezzers are allowed to be used in the way that VonGklugelstein found one being used. The fact that the place flickers is no indication at all that it is pushing resources to the limit, or anything like that. But if they are used to push the sim resources to the limit, then they should not be used. A bit of intermittent lag is no indication of it unless the lag occurs at ~1 minute intervals.
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Melodie Darwin
SL Answerless
Join date: 8 Feb 2008
Posts: 180
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04-13-2009 10:21
It's not a matter of having it both ways to temp rez structures AND fish or grass. The difference is that fish or grass in small amounts are an accent. Temp rezzing more than double the prims allowed on your parcel in a structure intended to always be there is an abuse of resources.
I have had 2 different temp rez structures near me... One was in the next sim and they combined large amounts of glow with the constant flashing of rezzing and derezzing was nearly seizure inducing. The other was on a parcel that didn't have auto return. I was more irked that they also had a giant prim covering my land as well.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 11:04
Yes it is having it both ways. Shoals of fish and areas of grass are intended to stay there all the time. There is no difference between temp rezzing them and temp rezzing a building. The fact that one is (often) prettier than the other is irrelevant, because they are both temp rezzed for the purpose of circumventing the normal prim allowance - which, incidentally, is allowed.
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Kokoro Fasching
Pixie Dust and Sugar
Join date: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 949
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04-13-2009 11:22
From: Phil Deakins Yes it is having it both ways. Shoals of fish and areas of grass are intended to stay there all the time. There is no difference between temp rezzing them and temp rezzing a building. The fact that one is (often) prettier than the other is irrelevant, because they are both temp rezzed for the purpose of circumventing the normal prim allowance - which, incidentally, is allowed. Actually, on the fish, they are not trying to stay rezzed all the time - at least not the ones I use. It will temp rez 4 or 5 in a staggered fashion, then as one 'dies', it will wait a minute or two, then rez one to replace the dead one. It is not temp rezzing it fast enough so that there are always the set number out, unlike a building that is temp rezzing over it'self so that the build is always there. The primary reason for temp rez on the fish is that often the grid will just send them to outer space, or 0.0.0, and being temp rez, they die a natural death.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 11:26
Yes but they are still being temp rezzed when they could be permanently rezzed - same with the grass. They could be rezzed so that they use part of the normal prim allowance, but that is being circumvented by them. It may be a matter of degree but it's still exactly the same thing.
I think that some people like grass and fish and so, for them, it's ok to temp rez them but not buildings, but that wouldn't make any sense at all. Either temp rezzing things to circumvent the prim allowance is ok or it's not ok - there is no in-between. As it happens, it's perfectly ok as long as doing it doesn't cause any problems for the sim or other people.
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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04-13-2009 11:44
I have seen temp-rez houses and other structures ARed and removed.
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Rygel Ryba
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 254
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04-13-2009 12:26
Yep. Definitely put in a report on it. It's abuse - plain and simple.
I'm a big fan of "holodeck" systems. There are several in world - Horizons is the most popular. There is also a script for making your own in the scripting wiki. These are real nice for smaller lots. a 512 is a little small for premade scenes, but if you have one where you can save your own builds it's real handy. And if you get 1024 or higher, a lot of the premade scenes are real nice - and would fit on a 1024 lot (prims and footprint).
Holodecks are nice because they aren't temp rezzers, rather they rez the scene - and then with a few clicks - clear it again and rez the next scene. So you can have your 140 prim house out, then say "Rez Lagoon" and your house clears and your 150 prim fishing area/waterfall/lagoon comes out and you're on vacation.
Very cool stuff.
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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04-13-2009 12:33
/me would contact the owner and ask them to remove it. They may not know that they're being evil...
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 12:52
From: Rygel Ryba Yep. Definitely put in a report on it. It's abuse - plain and simple. Is that an opinion or is it something you've seen in the ToS? If you've seen it somewhere, please share - otherwise it's just your opinion, which isn't reflected in the ToS and, therefore, doesn't count.
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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04-13-2009 13:56
From: Phil Deakins Is that an opinion or is it something you've seen in the ToS? If you've seen it somewhere, please share - otherwise it's just your opinion, which isn't reflected in the ToS and, therefore, doesn't count. It's abuse of region resources, probably covered under community standards #6: From: someone Disturbing the Peace Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace.
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Rygel Ryba
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 254
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04-13-2009 14:11
I also found this - apparently it's from a notecard that Chiyo Linden made up helping people know what to do in the case where a temp-rezzer is involved: From: Chiyo Linden ~Temp on Rez~
You may have heard of these. They are marketed as a way to go over your prim limits with "free" prims. Temporary prims are anything but free. They are actually quite expensive when not used properly. They are prims that disappear after a minute or so and don't count against your primcount, and they are intended to be used for things such as single prim physical bullets to be rezzed and disappear quickly on their own. They were NEVER meant to be used in a way that simulates normal prims or complex objects.
Here is the problem with this sort of misuse: It takes just as much effort for the server to rez a temporary prim as it does to rez a normal prim. The server also has to go through the effort of removing the prims, so it actually takes double the effort. The more prims that are being rezzed, the more effort required by the server. When temporary prims are rezzed on a continuous loop by a script, they can (and usually do) create an enormous burden on the server. People have tried to make this less noticeable through techniques like staggering the rez time to avoid 'lag spikes'. These are parlor tricks at best in an attempt to hide the problem rather than deal with it. You get less noticeable dips in FPS and Time Dilation, but the overall effect is the same... they add significantly to lag in the region for everybody.
You can identify Temp on Rez is being used in your region by noting an constant fluctuation in the Objects number in the Statistics Bar. This is especially true if the region is otherwise empty. It may coincide with a periodic dip in FPS and Time Dilation, but not always. If your region is laggy and your suspect this is the reason, please submit a support ticket if you are on the mainland and we can investigate. If you are on a private estate, please contact the island owner or an estate manager.
-Chiyo Linden
As Meade points out, the complaint is covered by the "Disturbing the Peace" clause and are enforced on the mainland through a trouble ticket. They won't do anything about it on an estate island (primarily because that's not their land to police in this way) but none of the estate owners I know of would let it happen if they were to know it it going on. I will say that talking to the neighbor first might be a good move, though. It's almost always best to try to settle things amongst ourselves first. But if that fails, you do have precedent to fall back on.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 14:18
From: Meade Paravane It's abuse of region resources, probably covered under community standards #6: It's not an abuse of region resources. The highlighted part of ToS snippet doesn't cover it - "other objects that intentionally slow....." isn't the same thing at all.
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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04-13-2009 14:30
From: Rygel Ryba I will say that talking to the neighbor first might be a good move, though. It's almost always best to try to settle things amongst ourselves first. But if that fails, you do have precedent to fall back on. And, if nothing else, the gteam will see that you talked to the neighbor first instead of running straight to them...
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 14:33
From: Rygel Ryba I also found this - apparently it's from a notecard that Chiyo Linden made up helping people know what to do in the case where a temp-rezzer is involved: That's fine. It pretty much says the same as the ToS snippet. Take an empty sim, for instance - no prims and no avs, therefore no scripts. It runs at full speed. Then rez that house on it and leave it there with no avs and no other prims. The server will run at full speed. That's an extreme example, but it demonstrates that the temp rezzed house is not an abuse in itself. I.e. temp rezzed houses are not an abuse. It would be an abuse if it caused problems for the server (slowing it appreciably/noticeably), and/or for other people - as would causing the same things with temp rezzed fish and grass - but there's no indication that that's happening in this case. From: Rygel Ryba As Meade points out, the complaint is covered by the "Disturbing the Peace" clause and are enforced on the mainland through a trouble ticket. They won't do anything about it on an estate island (primarily because that's not their land to police in this way) but none of the estate owners I know of would let it happen if they were to know it it going on. I pointed out why the snippet that Meade quoted doesn't cover it. It's not "disturbing the peace" for one thing, and it isn't slowing server performance or inhibiting other people's enjoyment of SL. Of course, any rezzed prim slows the server to some extent, and temp rezzed ones slow it more, but common sense interprets that snippet to mean slowing the server to an appreciable/noticeable degree, especially as it's written under the heading, "Disturbing the peace".
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Rygel Ryba
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 254
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04-13-2009 14:52
We all know (see the Great OpenSpace Upheaval of 200  that LL is all keen on the "intention of what we made it for" - and temporary prims for for rezzing object that are meant to be temporary - bullets, a coconut that falls from a tree and cleans itself up, a rail that falls from a horse jump when it falls down (but it should not be temp before it rezzes), etc. We can debate this until we are blue in the face - but it's all irrelevant. There need be no more proof that LL considers it to be abuse than the simple fact that if you show a Linden a temp rezzed house on a mainland estate, they will remove it without hesitation or question. Actions speak louder than words.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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04-13-2009 15:18
A Linden may well do that, but I'm inclined to think that it would depend on the state of the sim. I would doubt that one would do it in an otherwise near empty sim, for instance. And it all depends on which Linden you get at the time. They are not consistant with decisions when there are no explicit rules. I can guarantee that, if you ask live help about it, they'll tell you it's not against the ToS unless doing it negatively affects the sim or people. There's your proof if you want it. No need to go by inconsistent decisions.
The OpenSpace fiasco wasn't anything to do with "what we intended it for". That was just a public excuse to cover their huge cock-up.
Anyway, as you said, we could argue it forever and not agree. I think it's safe to say that your statement of fact - that "it's an abuse, plain and simple - was merely an opinion, and not a fact.
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