The US Gov cuts off internet gambling

a few months ago, I brought up that the US government was looking into reviving a ban on internet gambling. they place the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act on the coat tails of another bill they knew would have to be passed and now, no more internet gambling. The government has 5 months to clear this up and levy fines.

I don't know all the ins and outs on this.. just little blubs. basically if I understand it right, it prohits US citizens from gambling on off shore based platforms. if that is the case, then we should be fine gambling in SL or running an SL casino since its on a US based platform? Or should we only gamble at US owned casinos? Im afraid its going to get very muddled... as SL becomes more global, whats to stop the US government from stepping in and looking for "terrorist funding" through platforms such as this?

Certainly what the US government does has little impact on the global community in sl, and I tend to think casinos and gambling devices in sl dont clear the same amount of money as do other internet casinos or Vegas. Just makes me wonder.

anyone have any ideas?

Every time they hit my credit card, it's a gamble if it'll be up long enough for me to get what I paid for.

Funny, I don't think the Linden Lab division that takes your money is ever down.

The new law prohibits credit card companies and other financial institutions from facilitating on-line gambling by being the method of paying for online wagers.

I have not seen the actual text of the bill, but from what I have read there is some risk that it could shut down gambling in SL. If the major credit card companies were aware of the extent of gambling in SL they could take the position that because they can not tell what part of a credit card payment to SL was for lindens to be used for gambling, that they would not process ANY credit card paymnents to SL. They would do this to protect themselves from being found in violation of the new act.

While somewhat far-fetched because of the relatively small scale of gambling in SL, theoretically it could happen.

For example, SL EXchange had to set up a seperate Uncensored website because PayPal does not allow its system to be used to pay for porn and it would otherwise not be able to detrmine if any particualar PayPal payment via SL Ex was for porn. Thus, if SL Ex did not set up the separate Uncensored system, PayPal would not have allowed ANY PayPal payments to be made via SL Ex.

The new law indeed prohibits credit card companies from facilitating on-line gambling and paying for online bets. US citizens will not be able to use credit cards to play poker at places like Party, Empire, Pacific, Ladbrokes, Will Hill. Some sites have said they'll still accept credit card payments, of these I know of Full Tilt and Bodog. But there are many other methods of funding your bankroll at most poker sites.

Due the the explosion in internet gaming over recent years the law has been changed with a view to effect these and other gambling and gaming sites, yet I'm not sure if SL even came into the authorities thinking.

Whilst it is true that there is gambling in SL, that is not the primary purpose of this platform.

wow, good point I didnt think of that. there really is no way to determine what lindens bought for other reasons than gambling and what is used for gambling. I think you're right there could be implications of not processing credit cards on the premise it might be for gambling. another good point about slex and paypal. small scale in regards to ebay or something but still had to fall under paypals guidelines

Hmmm:

The thought just occurred to me that PayPal may not be aware of the extent of porn/sex/perversion/etc. being sold in SL paid for by the purchase of Lindens with a PayPal account.

Unlike online gambling sites, the Linden Dollar is not a real dollar. Though they can be bought and sold they aren't real. That is why you cannot sue someone for financial breach in real life over a debt incurred in SL. Since it's not real world money - the whole subject is moot. Argue the fine points if you want, but it's an exercise in futility in my opinion.

Sorry, but your interpretation is completely wrong.

L$ are "representative of value". You can buy and sell them readily for US$, and trade them for the IP of others. Since US$ and other peoples' IP both have value, by extension L$ also have value. No matter what the TOS tries to say. So, if you could find out someone's RL identity, you could absolutely sue them for a loss you've incurred in SL.

The anti-gambling legislation specifies "items representative of value", so that isn't an out.

yes Ricky that is true, but LL states that $L is not legal tender, but if you chose to trade it for real money, thats kinda your problem, damn i wish LL had as good a programmers as their lawyers seem to be...

I agree that L$ are not legal tender. Casino chips aren't legal tender either. In the U.S., only US$ are legal tender. Both, however, are representative of value for the purposes of this law. You can't hedge your way out of liability in that way.

SEC. 102. MODIFICATION OF EXISTING PROHIBITION.

Section 1084 of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 1084. Use of a communication facility to transmit bets or wagers; criminal penalties

`(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, being engaged in a gambling business, knowingly--

`(1) uses a communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce, within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or to or from any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to any transmission to or from the United States, of--

`(A) bets or wagers;

`(B) information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers; or

`(C) a communication, which entitles the recipient to receive money or credit as a result of bets or wagers, or for information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers; or

`(2) accepts, in connection with the transmission of a communication in interstate or foreign commerce, within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or to or from any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to any transmission to or from the United States of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers--

`(A) credit, or the proceeds of credit, extended to or on behalf of another (including credit extended through the use of a credit card);

`(B) an electronic fund transfer or funds transmitted by or through a money transmitting business, or the proceeds of an electronic fund transfer or money transmitting service, from or on behalf of the other person;

`(C) any check, draft, or similar instrument which is drawn by or on behalf of the other person and is drawn on or payable through any financial institution; or

`(D) the proceeds of any other form of financial transaction as the Secretary of the Treasury and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System may prescribe by regulation which involves a financial institution as a payor or financial intermediary on behalf of or for the benefit of the other person,

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.


Not sure how section section 2 (A) applies, if dirrectly to SL or the money changers??

How do you then deal with the problem of online games, like WoW, becoming "gambling" (and taxable!) because at the later stages of those games it's entirely possible to earn enough gold to sell for US$?

It doesn't seem likely that WoW would be considered gambling, unless they actually offer a way to buy gold and the means to gamble it away, and then sell the proceeds for real world money.

Taxes are another issue. You should pay taxes on your real world income from Second Life or WoW or other games, unless your tax accountant says otherwise.

For the purposes of the law anything that can be traded for USD has fungible value. If you apply that value to a game of chance, you are gambling.... which is now illegal...

Goodbye SL casinos..... And slingo, tringo and so on...

=B-)

The circumstances pertaining to WOW are very different from those of SL.

The WOW TOS forbids gambling. Also the sale of gold or other in game items for US dollars is also a violation of the TOS and Bizzard has banned thousands of accounts for doing this. Blizzard has also worked with eBay to have removed Auctions that violate its TOS and copyrights.

Blizzard learned its lesson from seeing its blockbuster game Diablo II destroyed by cheats and hackers and eBay sellers and has taken a much more assertive/pro-active approach with WOW

Sl on the other hand prides itself on its integration with the RL economy.

Also, the mechanisms for gambling in WOW are not integrated into the game engine as they are in SL.

Not such a bad thing for gameplay if gambling is banned, I don't think.

Operators will need to think of more creative ways to entertain.

Exactly right - the Terms of Service explicitly state this, and it's a safe bet it's there for the very reason you mention, which is to indemnify Linden Labs against litigation over the accidental loss of what are essentially game tokens by users of their online service.

Apparently thus far it has been extremely effective, as since SL started in 2002, no one has successfully sued anyone for events that took place within the game (Bragg v Linden Labs is still being examined with respect to whether the complaintant should be permitted to move forward with his suit at this writing, and so far it's not looking good for Mr. Bragg.)

And SL gambling will go the way of nickle and dime home poker games... or office betting pools.

--
We're from the IRS...
You just won less than a third of a penny. (L$1).
We're here for our cut.

From the main page the title is trucated to "US government cuts off internet." For a second I was about to flip out, then it occurred to me "wait, what?"

There are several interpretations on how this will play out... and it all comes down to LL's new TOS.... does their new TOS hold users liable for gambling, or do US laws superceed LLs TOS.

Either way, gambling in SL is REAL INTERNET GAMBLING... if someone bets USD, lindens$, a car, a house, gift certiicates, chips, whatever, its gambling.

One of these is the way it will play out:

* US SL casino owners are held responsible and when found out, they are asked to closed, fined, or imprisoned. Because there is no way to find out who is from where, certain people may only get found out through taxes & audits.

* LL is held responsible for allowing gambling even though LL has a clause in their TOS. LL will have to make gambling and casinos inworld illegal because LL is in the USA.

* LL is held responsible and will be shut down, fined, or imprisoned.


..... Basically, if you dispise casinos and gambling in SL, begin reporting it to proper government officials.

I'm optimistic about Downsize DC's approach to this kind of government action. They have a campaign going to reverse this internet-gambling-and-credit-cards law, which was piggy-backed on the Port Security bill (a practice known as "logrolling" here.

Are there any lawyers out there that are willing to give an opinion on this new law? Unless you are a lawyer, all I see here are a bunch or people that think they know a lot about the law. The other things that people always overlook is that LL has lawyers that I am sure have looked into this law.

That's an optimistic comment. All we can do is speculate, and just because one doesn't hold a paper in an area doesn't make them less knowledgeable than one who does. Thanks to Google and the internet, anyone can become an educated expert.

From what I see, techincally, gambling in SL is illegal. Plain and simple, you are paying something of value to directly gain something of value by random chance.

That is one of the funniest things I have heard in a long time. If you really believe that google can make you an expert in anything you have a lot to learn in life. Honestly, what does speculation really get you? Until an expert chimes in on the subject, I am going to assume that the lawyers that LL has have looked into this and know what they are doing.

You know many experts out there today that so many listen to don't have a degree?

You know that some of the most educated experts out there have gained thier knowledge off computers and databases of stored information? You do realize David Wood has no degree on paper right? (For those that don't know, he helped pioneer some major developments in cell phone technology. He was only recently awared with an honorary degree.) In fact, many 'experts' in thier field are regarded so off current retained information and experience, not a piece of paper. Hell, if my grandmother had gotten a degree when she was 24, would you consider her opinion on the subject relevant 40 years later if she hadn't furthered her education? If my roommate passes a math class with a D, does that make him a better choice to answer my question if I read the theories off the internet and understand it fully?

If you believe that a wealth of information at your fingertips cannot teach you anything, I'd say you have a lot to learn in life. Move into the digital age, try it, you'll like it.

But I guess without a degree in the related field, opinions don't count, so unless you have a piece of paper in educating in education, then I guess yours doesn't matter either.