Do You Risk Business on an Estate?

Both my stores are on estate land, and I would not have it any other way. For my oldest store, the furniture, I have been renting from the beginning from the same estate owner, and get the best service possible. The new plants store is still a guess of course, as I haven't been renting for long there yet.

Good luck on your new plot

One of the worst things that can happen to a business in SL is to have to move it. All of those old landmarks that happy customers have to your business become obsolete.

The search engine makes very hard for anyone to find your business again, if it has changed locations. For this reason I believe that if you cannot afford your own sim you are better off keeping your business on the mainland.

I would only consider estate land if it was with a land owner who has a long record of being stable.

Yep..for commerical i prefer Mainland to be honest, I also have stuff on the Plush sims.....Ahnse has been reasonably stable with her commerical plots. i know she sold a few, but i was unaffected

This was my biggest concern from the beginning. Nonetheless I've gone ahead and am in the process of settling my store down on an attractive piece of an estate. I'm aware of the hazards and flaws of both mainland and estate properties, but the only mainland locations I could afford were absolute crap.

For now, I'm happy with the decision I made.

After what happened to us a few weeks ago, I(we) will never pay a purchase price for estate land again. Our lose was brutal when the estate owner sold the sim right from up under us. We have our own sim now and in the process of rebuiding our business for the 3rd time. I am happy to report traffic is picking up at our sim and we have the please excuse the construction signs out.

As my grandmother used to say, some of the best lessons taught are the ones you bought. I thought the lesson we learned from the openspace fiasco was tough. It was powder puff compared to the lesson, no spanking we got from purchasing estate land.

If for some reason we need to go that route again, we will definitely look for the 1L offer or a similar arrangement that Honeybear offers.

I think renting from an *established* estate owner with a good reputation is perfectly safe, or at least a reasonable risk. I've never owned mainland, and in two years of renting various parcels, I honestly haven't had a single bad experience. I have rented in areas that didn't pay off in a commercial sense, but never had any problem with misrepresentation from the sim owners. In the cases in which a sim had to shut down, the owners have been upfront about it, and given me a clear timetable for when it was going to occur.

I believe this all comes from only working with people who were known quantities. I have sometimes had shops in places where I didn't know the owner, but in those cases, I only paid rent, and never made a down payment.

I've never really been tempted by mainland at all. I prefer my shops to be in places where the theme fits my products. Most of my business these days is from my Caledon shops, which are located in pastoral regions where horses and animals seem to fit. I don't have to worry about someone plopping a modern looking dance club/strip mall next to my stables, and conversely, no one minds the constant clip clopping of my touring carriages on public land.

Before we got screwed over, I was with an *established* estate owner for over 2 1/2 years.

I am sorry to hear that, Sable. I don't think anyone would fault your judgment in that case. But nothing is certain, period. As the former OS sim owners would no doubt tell you, even renting directly from Linden Lab is not without risk. And in general, estates offer better on hands management than mainland does.

Personally, I'm less worried that I might lose a fifty odd USD investment (which is what my main parcel in Caledon cost me), than I would be about an unwanted neighbor on a mainland parcel damaging my business. But that's partially the nature of what I sell, which benefits from zoning.

well one way to help if you are moved is having good customer records and resending landmarks updating search and letting people know you have moved..if you know in advance
all the better..

our estate owner is very good at keeping us informed..if a problem was coming she would be letting us know..
it's good to have an estate owner that loves to stay in touch with their community..
our community channel is always being chatted up and the estate owner is right in there with us if it is serious chat or just goofing around..
so i'm pretty confident in the community i live in..i think that is what is more important than anything.


also i was wondering about dream land..was it OS sims they were selling off or regular sims?
it seemed like a lot of that was going on around the first part of the OS change news..

I'm so sorry that this happened to you Sable, I've read about it in your other thread. It makes me cringe, and puts a bad taste in everyone's mouth, for estate owners in general. I have 1536 meters on the mainland, on Whitesun. I just have a house and some pretty stuff on it; no business; I don't want to put up banlines, so am always having to delete prim trash, different things, vehicles, just 'stuff' that people leave there. I have object entry and create objects and scripting turned off (unchecked) except for group, so I don't know how that stuff just arrives and adds to my prim count there, but I'm always dealing with it. And there's been a huge castle appeared just over the border of my land, in the sky there probably not even 100m up which is an eyesore (yes I know it's my opinion only) and just the kind of thing that I don't like mainland, for.

On my estate, all skybuilds have to be above 300m and we do have a covenant that works well to allow maximum enjoyment for all, not just for some, who think they should have the right to do certain things, like put up some huge wall that blocks their neighbor's view of nearly everything. On the mainland, that would be just too bad. So I do prefer the estate living, just less junky, less cluttered and am willing to pay for the privilige.

Those are residential preferences, for shopping all bets are off, I go where they have what I want/am looking for.

i agree..look at the people having to move or change when this new adult mainland opens up..
it may not happen often that mainland people are moved ..but when it happens it happens on a big scale..

Treasure, thank you for your kind words.

Yes, mainland does have it own issues and that is putting it mildy. I am blessed at my mainland parcel I don't have to deal with that. It is very stable and very seldom land is up for sale. When we were looking for a viable mainland location, the question we always go back to is what if someone puts up something next to us that in our opinion would be an eyesore. Also my husband wanted more options with terrain and texture files so naturally estate ownership was our best option.

With respect to what happened to us, I don't believe the estate owner that we were with was trying to be malicious nor greedy. I think otherwise of the jerk she sold it to. In our opinion, she just handled it badly. I think she is still a good estate owner and perhaps she learned as lesson as we did. But then maybe not.

they got caught out big time with the OS sims fiasco.....but they also sold grandfathered full sims thereafter.....ones that had lots of yellow on it.

re: mainland- Katla has some 1024's you can unite into a 4096. it's a nice sim.

i have only ever rented on an estate once, and that is NOW and i have no complaints. i have da best landlord evah! mine is residential tho, but that's by choice. all the land around me appears to be commercial.

This excuse is old and doesn't apply. It diverts from the intended concern of either buying (renting) direct from LL, or from a third party resident further down the food chain. The question of whether or not it's buying or renting isn't part of it. It's about whether or not you get it from the source, or through another resident who may or may not be as secure. I like knowing that it would take SL shutting down for good before MY estate manager (LL) folds and closes up shop, and no "resident" island owner can ever offer that kind of security.

Awwww 3Ring!



Security's an issue, sure.

On the other hand, pretend that you had a landlord that sold you land for hundreds of USD, then jacked your tier from 50/mo to 125/mo on some openspaces that you had since 2006.

Then told all the adult businesses that they were going to be forcibly moved.

While failing to address rampant adfarming and extortion for three years.

And sold beautiful city parcels for insane amounts only to utterly enforce any kind of covenant.

Oh, and banlines. Don't forget the banlines! Could you imagine?

Anyone running a private estate like that would have not only gone out of business, but have been named and shamed 1000 times over for stunts like that.

So security sure comes at a price.

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Also, with regard to security ~ I typically run at about 3 months tier in reserve (about 2.5 months now as the openspace debacle of my secure service provider last quarter cost me 10,000+ very real dollars). Yep, over 20,000 USD in credit.

Anyone think our service provider has 2.5 months worth of operating reserves right now? Let's say they pull in 60 million a year (conservative estimate) ~ think they have 12.5 million in cold cash banked?

If Caledon ever fell while using such fiscal restraint and careful land management, how far behind would the mainland be? An open question.

1/4 billion square meters of uncovenanted, unzoned anarchy... that's one estate I wouldn't want to own, even if it had "most secure" stamped on it and only maybe 100 USD/mo of real maintenance fees per region.

Right now 4 users out of 5 pay 150% more in tier rather than be on the mainland. That says a lot ~ not even 100/month discount, plus the 10% group land discount on top of that is good enough to keep most people there. The mainland is maybe 20% of the grid; most people don't choose it. This is fact not speculation.

And with the grid is shrinking at about 100 regions per week lately due to reduced demand, yet the mainland isn't allowed to shrink accordingly also ~ I can't think of a better recipe for a land disaster.

The only security in *anything* is continued excellence.

Full disclosure to those who don't know me: yes, I'm a private estate land baron with nearly 50 regions. I respect other people's views, but at the same time I absolutely believe in what I'm doing.

Very little I've accomplished in the last 3 years could ever have been done on the mainland whatsoever. I personally haven't charged up front fees for land rights on my estate in ages (what little falls back to me), but other people can, and do sell rental rights all the time.

It's the free market deciding, not me, and the free market currently says that my estate land has a value. Even if I tried to stop the practise, it would simply go on quietly behind my back.

Yes Des, but those things aren't on the other hand.. they're on the head and affect everyone because it's LL your talking about. Your landlord is my landlord, so it's a tilted comparison to try and compare LL's global faults with the service a respectable estate manager might provide. To be fair, compare to what a renter would get when renting a parcel in a full sim+ of mainland, WITH a good landlord... it's nearly identical. As far as negatives go, it's all a tradeoff for freedom and ownership... islands have their tradeoffs as well.

There's a major difference ~ a good private estate manager is a buffer and blocker of just about all of the service provider's faults. For instance, adfarming and extortion issues never touched private estate residents. Customer service too: even nonpaying, unlanded regulars that hang around my estate can ask me questions rather than submit a ticket and wait.

And sure, for basic rental there are some very good mainland land barons. But even they will tell you that anything like my estate is essentially impossible on the mainland. I've got a cluster of 45 themed, covenanted regions with towns, cities, yada yada. Without extortion or grief builds like Bay City in addition to a very large, active community. There is no way that's happening on the mainland.

There are benefits and disadvantages either way.

The best bet is to buy your own private island region, but that's outside the scope when all you want is a parcel.

With mainland, the risk of being ejected is significantly lower. However, you run the risk of neighbor problems with far less recourse than well-run private land, especially where covenant issues are concerned.

I'm glad we have more than one option. I'm happy running my small business from private island land, and I'm confident that barring a serious tragedy, I'll get get plenty of notice if I have to move, and that I'll be able to manage it. Meanwhile, I have just the kind of environment I want, with little fear that someone will move in next door and wreak havoc, while having just the degree of flexibility that I want on my own parcel.

Good Post Desmond!

Nonpaying, unlanded residents can ask here and get the same advice.

I am sorry, but Dana is right - LL is your landlord as it is ours who own mainland. The OS debacle that cost you five digits of real money is your landlord's ill-advised behavior. The same landlord whose antics put Sarah Nerd, Gigs Taggart and others out of the estate business.

While a good private estate manager can buffer service provider faults, there is no guarantee and often no way to know for sure who can do that. Many people would not have absorbed the loss with homesteads and only take $5 over tier, as common wisdom would say that it's bad business in the long run, especially with the July price hike looming. You maintained good faith with your customers. Are they going to give you the difference come July, willingly? I don't think so. Talk to us again about buffering against the service provider's mistakes in August.



We can't create extensive contiguous communities on that scale on the mainland as single entities, but so what? We can create pockets of neighborhoods all over, if we wanted to. I have neighborhoods in 5 different sims, and only one being an estate. Anywhere that you find a developer who controls the scenery, you can see the difference between it and the surrounding mainland. My folks are pretty much just as insulated inside my community as they are on your islands, with few exceptions at the edges of the sims and a few holes inside the first sim I bought, where I (shouldn't have) sold the land. But the folks who have settled inside the holes by and large appreciate the community and have nice places inside them that fit in.

And my rental agreement is just as good as your covenant, to the point that I don't even need to write one for my island.

Avion Raymaker's metropolis around Liome is a great example. It's only about 3 sims but it's a beautiful, desirable community.

Lebettu was the same, with a lovely Santorini theme.

And the list goes on and on. We provide great service, but ultimately our renters stay with us at the risk of our financial viability, and our simple desire to keep going on. LL as a company is ultimately the more stable landlord, as "burn out" is not an issue for them, and they have better leverage to keep people than we do.

Slightly tangential but I'm wondering if there may be a brief window of opportunity here. With the new adult continent coming online and potentially some sort of land swap planned... I'm seriously considering trading all my current mainland parcels for some great contiguous porn monstrosity on the new continent. Hopefully the sims will form the shape of a giant penis.

It's pretty simple Cristalle, I already have talked to the 21 homestead people and have a read on it already. Most (possibly all) say they are keeping them.

Those that don't ~ I'll let a few homesteads go if I can't find takers at 5 or 10 bucks over tier; no up front charges. Last time I had a couple extra openspaces (at 95/mo) and offered them that way, they lasted about three minutes on the open market. With IM's still coming in about them for days.

I've been prepared for August since last November. Unlike the mainland, I can let a few regions go to maintain fiscal stability if I have to.

* * * * *

As for what satisfies people ~ your residents may be fine with mainland neighbours, and hey, that's wonderful. But not everyone is fine with it whatsoever. On most private estates, just about 24/7 anyone can call for an estate manager and get a region restarted, lost items tracked down via estate controls, you name it.

There's also that JIRA about scripts not deleting with items, bogging down the region's frame time. Only stopping scripts, restarting the region, then restarting scripts when the region comes back will fix it. I feel sorry for anyone dealing with that on the mainland right now. Issues like this crop up all the time.

And the real big one is community. There's about 120 or so Caledon residents online at any given time; typically communicating with each other and socialising. This is the same with most all large, social estates.

That's not everyone's cup of tea, sure, but the difference between renting a mainland parcel and participating in one of the larger themed estates is absolutely night and day. We've got a new resident welcome area that is a full region all by itself and ridiculously active with real, social people.

There's a whole lot a resident has to not care about, before Caledon is on equal par with a 2 or 3 region mainland estate. Seriously now.

How is this different from mainland? We all do the same thing if we want to tier down - sell, or abandon.


I'm not saying that they are equals, and neither is Dana. Everyone's mileage varies as to what they are willing to put up with on mainland OR estates. But the question that is at the center of this thread is whether there is a risk going with an estate versus buying mainland and the risk of loss is greater with an estate owner, no matter how well managed, than it is with Linden Lab. Just because an estate is better run than the mainland doesn't make it a safer option, it just makes it more palatable. If Linden Lab decides to close up shop there is nothing you can do about it to buffer your residents. But if you decide to close up shop, residents have a recourse outside of you.

Linden Lab doesn't suffer from burnout. The company doesn't contemplate folding up because of customer service issues. The company's problems and issues to focus on are vastly different from yours, mine and anyone else inside the game.

The original poster is not a novice to SL or land, he knows the risks, but asked the question anyway. Why, I really don't know, but he did. So looking at this title, he is at greater risk by going with a private estate than owning mainland. I will not discourage anyone from getting estate land, but I'm not going to use the niceties as a red herring to distract people from the fact that paying anyone other than LL for land is a greater security risk, no matter how well it's run.

It depends on your read of risk. If the only thing you care about is whether you'll lose your rental property's downpayment, then I suppose a literal read would have a mainland parcel with less risk than an estate. After making my fifty dollar downpayment on my main business plot in Caledon, Desmond could have been hit by the proverbial truck. Then once his two month or so cushion dried up, I'd have to find a new place. So, I would have been out a fair bit of pocket change, and would have had to forgo the weekly Saturday night sushi.

Of course, if you are renting somewhere where there is no downpayment, then the only real risk is the landmark (which is an issue for a business that has been there for a while), and however much cushion you have on your rental metre.

But my read of business risk is different than Cristalle's. I ask myself where my business itself would be most at risk. Am I renting somewhere I know the neighboring plots will get cleaned up, post grief attack? Or am I renting on the mainland? Am I somewhere that I know I can call someone and have them track down whatever is lagging the sim, restarting it if necessary? Or am I renting on the mainland? Am I somewhere I know will continue to attract people and stay thematically consistent with my business image? Or am I....you gather my meaning, I'm sure.

Call those things mere niceties if you like, but for many such as myself, they weigh very heavily when trying to decide where to hang our shingles.