Do You Risk Business on an Estate?

Last night while searching around at land I accidentally TP'd myself in the sales office for an estate Sim. I've been looking for a 4096m on mainland. I decided to take a look at the land with a salesperson and there was a very nice parcel for only L$10,000. I haven't even considered estate land before, but this price is very tempting. I have never heard of this group before so I know nothing about their reputation. I am aware of all the dangers of owning (renting) estate land.

Anyone out there having good experiences with a store on an estate sim or should I run like hell?

Why not rent an estate parcel?

Over 80% of the grid is estate, people have good experiences everyday on estate land.

I know, it just makes me nervous since I've never heard of the estate owners and we hear so many horror stories.

estate for 10000!!!! NO!

my god person, you can buy them for a 1L if you look around. Then just pay tier.

Generally, I agree with your concern about using estate, because I was ripped off by someone a few years ago on estate land.

The money I lost was the "purchase" price of the estate. Nowadays, estate owners very rarely have "purchase" prices, there is rent only. Don't pay a purchase price, that's the money you will lose if ripped off. If you are only paying rent, your losses are limited to the advance rent you pay (and of course the hassle of relocating).

The other thing to look for is how long the person has been in business, and how many other long-term businesses are hosted on the land. At least I figure that the longer an estate owner has gone without ripping off other people, the less likely the estate owner is to rip me off.

I'll add that though I too would prefer what I consider to be lesser risk in mainland, I recently went into co-ownership of an SL club, and one of my co-owners talked me into putting the club on an estate rather than mainland. The estate is managed by someone who is my co-owner's friend of three years, and there were plenty of other long-term businesses on her estates that convinced me that it was safe.

Our club is an adult club, and just a month after we made the move to the estate, Linden Lab announced its plan of moving all adult content to an adult continent, with estate land being exempt from the forced move. I'm quite glad that my co-owner talked me into estate now.

The truth of the matter is, this adult continent thing makes me realize that Linden Lab isn't trustworthy either. I don't think there is really any reason anymore to think that Linden Lab is more honest a landlord than the anonymous estate owners.

I know of people making > 1000 USD a month in Caledon with their stores, and quite a few more making several hundred a month. So not sure how they would report their experience, but in my view that's pretty good I can't name names due to confidentiality.

That said, there are a number of others who are struggling also; but I don't think that has a lot to do with mainland vs. estate per se.

Perhaps the biggest danger is this: almost any merchant can talk about the dangers of moving their main store from a well known location. If the estate is shuffling regions around or something, that can be trouble.

That's also been a very big concern of mine, but I've gone ahead and (purchased) a parcel where there was no upfront fees and is exactly what I've been looking for.

Notices for the Grand Opening will be going out soon.

they want to sell you the land for 10K then charge tier?
And it is a private estate?

I would say no, as already mentioned, you can "buy" estate for 1L and then pay tier, in many estate land areas.

Selling estate land is a ripoff in my opinion, because no matter how they spin it, you are still renting it. Unless you pay tier to LL, you are renting and at the mercy of the sim owner.

All land is rented, even mainland, even when you buy it from Linden Lab, you don't own a thing. As we can see from the adult continent and Openspace changes, renting direct from Linden Lab can still leave you with a humungous slap in the face, you're at the mercy of the estate owner.

Selling estate land is not a ripoff, there are many reputable landlords who sell estate land, it's kind of insulting to suggest they're ripoff merchants.

However there are many options to get your hands on land, if you're not comfortable with the option in front of you move along and look for another one, there are many out there.

I would object to paying any more than a nominal "purchase" price that would cover the landlord's effort to set the property up for you. If all that it involves (as in most cases) setting a price and clicking a box, L$1 is pretty reasonable.

To get the very lowest monthly payments, it would be reasonable for a landlord to charge an up front fee to more or less lock you in so that you're less likely to leave, forcing them to find a new tenant.

You see, while the GUI may think you "own" the property, you're really renting, and can get booted at any time for no reason at all, and you'd have no recourse other than to wail about it. Or get an RL laywer. The landlord holds all the cards.

The reputation of the landlord is extremely important, and not particularly easy to assess. Even if they're totally honest, forces beyond their control may force them to quit SL, and they may have no fallback plan.

Nonetheless, I risk it and I'm glad that I do.

10K? Wow.

Parcels in the commercially themed named estate I manage are only L$500 and I consider them a super deal, and still there are quite a few openings. It makes me wonder sometimes if people see value in a product only if they are paying a premium price.

I have seen people make comments along those lines, cheap estate land means anyone can move in blah blah blah.

I went ahead and {bought} some estate land. As many of you stated, there was no upfront fee other than tier. Not only that but it's a much nicer piece of property than the 10K property I was looking at earlier.

Thank you for everyones feedback. It was all very helpful.

at least with mainland you are not at the whim of an owner who can eject you and keep your money, and you can build what you want, terraform how you want, as long as within the ToS

as for the new adult decisions coming down the line, that will not affect me as my store could easily be PG.

I said it was my opinion and it is still, that SELLING then charging tier, is a ripoff, as you are at the mercy of a landowner that can eject you anytime, limit what you do with the land, etc, and you have no recourse
(LL doesn't sell the land on mainland, the other residents sell it to you, when LL sold it back when I started it was 1L per sq meter) which is sooo not a ripoff)

*shrug*

LL has said if the time comes to move ppl the move would be free, do you think a private land owner would do that (the ones that are not honest are the ones I am referring to)

I never said that all are ripoffs, I said some, and I will not change my opinion.

The op wanted opinions, mine was just another opinion (and it was not even the first to say anything about buying private sim land)

Yes you are, LL can eject you anytime they like, there's an any reason and no reason clause and yes they can keep your money.



But it does affect mainland renters Rha, and if they bow down to pressure and build a new PG continent it could very well be an issue for you.



I paid USD$1675 for my island, that's a tad more than L$1. LL auctioned a hell of a lot of mainland parcels, they went for a lot more than L$1.



You're entitled to your opinion and I for one would never thwart someone's right to an opinion but your opinion was a broad one, why should an estate owner not do what LL does and look to recover the cost of their investment? I gave up selling estate plots when I realised I didn't have the heart to reclaim plots people had paid for, I bought them back when they reneged on tier. However LL don't, they reclaim them and auction them off. My lack of backbone put me out of pocket, but it also made me realise what was the right path for me.

I'll only do rentals now because that suits me, but to accuse people of ripping off for looking for a return on investment I find disappointing and some very respected landlords carry out that model. I've rented land and had the estate owner disappear, which is why I suggested to Bradley that renting might be a better option, but a ripoff doesn't occur until someone is ripped off. Selling parcels does not constitue a ripoff.

I do business on private estates pretty much exclusively nowadays, and refuse to have anything to do with mainland.

Sure there's some inherent risk there, but for every horror story you hear I'd guess that there are probably a hundred people who've never had a problem.



.

Yep, like Dreamland, they have been selling some of their commerical sims and moving sims around....causing you to lose your picks...or LM's TP'ing you to a neighbouring sim. A real nightmare!

I do both renting and selling (leasing) of plots, each plot is set out with that option. The tier is slightly less than the rental fees....the only difference between the 2 models is that as owner of plot can resell it or sub-let it.....a renter can't. Otherwise everything is the same.....i actually make slightly more from Renters though.
The flip side, renters are a pain in the @ss, they come and go and at times are very fickle. Residents that have paid a purchase price tend to be more committed to both being part of the community and maintaining their residency. Alot of my residents have been with me for 1.5 to 2 yrs now......and to be honest i prefer that sort of resident to the fast-turnaround renter!

Again the selling of parcels....you only hear about the rip-off stories when they occur on forums, but each minute Estate land is being exchanged for Lindens with out any issues throughout that plot's tenancy....and that could very well be 99.9% of the time!

Aside from my own sims on Estates and Mainland, i also own plots of land on Dreamland, Fantasyland & Mainland to which i paid a purchase price.......i have no issues with any of my Estateowners and i place my trust in all entities until something occurs.

I prefer having commercial plots in Commerical Districts or Mainland....my only advice to Bradley is to stick either with large estates that have been around awhile or smaller ones that have a good reputation.....that way you'll minimise your risk.

instead of once again repeating an opinion, I will just simply say

to each their own

Right, but the odds are dramatically better with LL than with a random landlord.

Landlords are free to do whatever they want, but without due diligence investigating the reputation of the landlord, customers are fools to fork over large lumps of cash fo land that can be taken at any time for no reason.

As a renter, I vastly prefer a busines model where the landlord's profit is maximized by keeping me on rather than ejecting me.

I was disappointed to find that these large initial payments were neearly unavoidable in SL a year or two ago, and I'm relieved to find that they no longer are.

When a sim cost 1675 USD to buy it made sense to ask for a purchase price, it would have taken an age to recover one's investment otherwise. Now that sims are a 1000 USD direct from LL, there's less pressure to price parcels.....and if you are lucky to buy a SIM from another resident typically for around 500-600 USD....there really isn't any need to have a purchase price other than say the 1st week's Tier or rent in advance.
At that price (500-600 USD) the EstateOwner could probably get back their investment between 4-6 mths, which seems pretty reasonable in SL life terms.

Rene has pretty much summed up the reason; regions are a lot less expensive than they were. Also the grid is shedding something like 100 regions a week and times are tough. Many landlords are in desperation mode to get somebody, anybody, to pay the tier or they could lose the whole region.



Even back then it was possible to find people offering private estate land for nothing up front, and fairly regularly. Most of those people paid 1675 for a region though, and figured the land market would be awesome for years. Well... anyone who assumed that and didn't recoup costs early is now out of their 1675 USD. Or worse, or even a lot worse (out of business).

On my estate there are some areas that are still very expensive to get into, and other areas that aren't; if a defaulted parcel falls back to me I don't charge $L up front for it these days. Which sounds great but whatever happened to default isn't usually exactly what someone is looking for, while a parcel with rights for sale often is. Keeping full has also held up the ability for others to sell their rental rights to a decent degree, and it's still a common practise in Caledon. I personally don't make anything off it, other than the vague benefit of having a micronation with land that is valued a bit.

As the owner of an estate sim, I won't sell my land. I don't ever want people nervous that they may get "ripped off"....not that they ever would from me.

I have, however, been burned more than once on estate land.

So, I wholeheartedly encourage you to either rent, or "buy" land for 1L and pay tier. You're going to pay tier even if you pay 10k, because someone has to and I guarantee it isn't going to be the seller.

I agree with those saying not to pay a purchase price for estate land! I charge a 99L$ deposit - 1L$ attracted too many griefers - but the 99L$ is fully refundable on move-out if the resident clears their land and is not in arrears.

I am not going anywhere - and if times get tough I can cover tier out of my own pocket for a couple of months if a few regions aren't full enough. Beyond that, I might have to downsize, but I'd never leave residents in the lurch. When I had to make changes due to the Homestead/OS mess, I compensated the displaced residents with free weeks on my other sims. That's just the right thing to do!

i've been on my estate land for like 2 years now i believe..
a great community..
you actually buy the land and pay tier..you can't sell the land but you can rent it to others if you like..
i''m not sure about the rest of their sims but mine has been double prim the whole time..

it's commercial and residential

i actually have seen a lot of businesses launch from my sim..infact adresslas skins(hope i spelled that right lol) used to live by me..now she moved to her own sim which is actually the next sim over lol
there were a bunch more but her name is the only one that comes to mind at the moment..
she seems to be doing very well now..

i lived on mainland the first part of my first year and was partners in a club..
one day it was a nice place then one day the area turned to crap and lagg like i have never felt..so i said bye bye to mainland forever..

private islands i am sure have their flaws..i just haven't felt any of them yet