UK VAT Law

Send it to: [email]robin@lindenlab.com[/email]

Full kudos to you and thank you for actively doing something about it rather than just moaning in the blogs. I've registered my concerns as well through both support tickets and external agencies and am waiting for replies. Lets hope a few more people are encouraged to be more proactive.

Instead of bombarding Robin with emails people should probably look to bombard the people who make these decisions. Contact you European Members of Parliament and your local members of parliament. They are the people who make these decisions.

What? You happened to get a discount on LL's services vis-a-vis the rest of the world. I'm sorry about the lack of notice, but you and and I will be paying LL the same amount of revenue - the TAX goes to YOUR GOVERNMENT. Bark up their tree. LL has decided to not subsidize your play at everyone else's expense. Were it not for this tax, you would be paying the same as everyone else.

It's the handling of the whole affair that upsets most, and understandably so. I really don't think any blame for that can be directed at any government.

For the record, I don't agree with everything said in that email, and I wouldn't condone anyone bombarding anyone with emails.

I agree wholeheartedly, Hiro. Truly. This was abysmal and LL could have done much better.

Amen.

What's wrong about complaining about a complete lack of notice? It's illegal where we come from. What's wrong with complaining about the way it was implemented? If no one complains how on earth will anyone know they did anything wrong? Or that people really are angry and upset about it?
Or should all Europeans just meekly say "thank you Linden Lab"?

QFT

These governments are there because we, EU people, placed them there. That means we more or less agree with what they do (As a famous Dutch writer said once: "Two hurrays for democracy.... not three!". Meaning democracy is not perfect, but the best we can get).

I support the system of VAT and Taxes we have here... and all that is connected to it. That is my right, as it is others right to have other opinions. No need for bad words or pointing here.

So it is not that I am angry about the fact that I have to pay VAT. I am annoyed about the fact how LL handled this.... and at the same time I feel pity for those who own a ilse or a lot of land who may now be forced to drop it.

That is all. Nothing to do with our governments...

Morwen.

Yeah that.

My local MEP is Michael Cashman, the former Eastender's actor.

I've decided to write him a letter to see if I can get the Government's stance on the E-Business (VAT) Directive and their intentions when this policy next comes up for review.

I will of course briefly outline how this Directive has affected thousands of Second Life users, and why it is utterly incompatible with an innovative platform like this with its own internal economy. To the best of my ability anyway. I'm not a good writer at all.

If you are British and wish to contact your own MEP, you can find their contact details here:

http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersMain.htm

If you are British and want to voice your objection to this policy, please (god damnit PLEASE) sign this E-Petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/EU-INTERNET/

It's so easy it will take up seconds of your time.

I understand, Morwen, but as demonstrated above, some people clearly ARE incensed about having to pay the VAT, and it is not just about notice. I do think LL should be very aware of the customs of its various customers, and their handling of this was highly unprofessional. It shows a massive bad faith money grab by not giving greater notice. But even if they had given greater notice, some people would still be grousing anyway.

Europeans are not the only ones disappointed in LL's handling of the situation. It could just as easily happen to the rest of us under the right conditions.

it's worth mentioning that (having gone through my records I find that,) of the 14 US companies I have done regular e-business with in the last year or so (webspace, domain services, usenet, software downloads, etc.,) and all the odd reciepts for occasional purchases I could find, not one of them has ever charged me VAT (including several who also have a UK presence like LL.)
Even Amazon.com don't charge me VAT on physical objects like books and DVDs (and they have a much larger presence in the UK with amazon.co.uk than LL!) My last invoice from them is nearly a year old, but I just checked on their website 5 mins ago, and confirmed it's still the case.

Now, perhaps I'm just lucky and/or they're all breaking the law, and ought to have. But they didn't. And I think that amply demonstrates that there wasn't any particular urgency facing LL in implementing this policy, even if it was (according to the relevant legal niceties,) actually necessary.

So I suppose it's also worth asking, has anyone here from Europe ever actually been charged VAT by a US (or even any other non-European) company?

Of course there are people who don't agree with the fact that they suddenly have to pay VAT, but most people I talked with it are mainly annoyed about LL's way of acting in this.

Morwen.

In the case of physical good, the courier is often responsible for collecting VAT and other applicable duties at the point of delivery (and I have had to pay this on some non-EU orders). Most of my orders from Amazon.com were books which at least used to be VAT exempted (although once I had to reclaim VAT charged by the courier on a delivery including books...)

Matthew

Yes. Sony Online Charges also VAT. Why? Same reason as LL does now... they have company parts within Europe.

Morwen.

a) Books are exempt, is why Amazon don't charge VAT. Where applicable.

b) if a US co sets up a UK subsidiary and that UK subsidiary issues bills, they will have to explain why they don't include VAT the minute they exceed £13,000 of turnover per quarter. What's causing the grief here is that US companies (Paypal are the most obvious example) have taken to "rendition" of non-US resident client accounts over to subsidiaries in their local countries. LL went to the UK; Paypal went to Luxembourg, as I recall. This process does not involve telling the customer in advance - it just happens.

I can see why that would piss people off.

Oh well, maybe it's not unheard of then, though as I say, other companies who have a UK presence don't charge me (but I'm not giving anyone ideas by saying who
I bet if Sony continued selling a product that could only work with an advertised monthly subscription right up until the moment they effectively hiked the price of the subscription by 17.5% they'd find themselves in a whole heap of trouble.

I certainly wouldn't have bought half a region of mainland if I'd known this was coming, so now I have to decide whether to dump it now at a fraction of what I paid for it, and move to an estate, or grit my teeth and pay the extra for a few months, and see if the land prices recover. Either way I'm leaving the mainland as soon as seems economically prudent, and the day I no longer have to do business directly with LL will be a happy one.

Which product is that?

I'd be very surprised to hear that Sony ain't charging UK customers VAT, given the sheer number of offices they have across the EU.

Same here, but unfortunately they're still violating the Directive.

That's illegal. Could you name one of these companies?

The E-Business Directive relates to digital services, like downloadable musics and stuff. Applie iTunes charges VAT on this kind of thing, and I'd be very surprised if Amazon didn't too.

As for physical products sent from Amazon.com (USA) to your home, they absolutely *are* liable for VAT provided they're worth more than a certain amount and should be intercepted by H.M. Customs and Excise before they reach your front door.

That's happened to me in the past (expected). It's happened with expensive books I could only obtain from Amazon USA, and a Tokyoflash watch I treated myself to last year -- shipped all the way from Japan.

Hey Walker if youre VATMAN who's Robbin'

lol

Paypal gave us plenty of warning we were being moved to PayPal Europe (well, they gave me a month or two, I seem to recall.) As I recall, they repeatedly reassured us that the new service would benefit customers here, and explicitly offered the chance to pull out if we didn't want it. And indeed, it is now much cheaper for me to withdraw money from PayPal into my bank account, they've never charged me VAT, and there are more currency options than ever before.

eBay also set up a co.uk presence, and likewise, more European-focussed listing features and payment flexibility has greatly benefitted customers here. Nope, they don't charge me VAT either.

The same goes for plenty of other companies.

So why has LL set up a UK branch? To benefit its UK customers? To offer better value or extra features? No - apparently it's set it up purely to piss all its European customers off big time. Is there a single advantage to this situation? I can't see one.

I guess SwollenEgo Linden decided they wanted to go with a swanky global image to impress the Press/other companies/girls at parties, and thought "f*** the customers, let's just go open a few offices abroad so we look like real go-getting executive types."
And I object to paying extra for people to indulge their egos instead of providing an acceptable level of service to their customers.

The answer to this could be highly intriguing.........

Indeed, I can think of a few amusing answers, but I'll refrain

Well there are one or two real Jokers about

C'mon, you just ran away from the other thread.

Penguin