Banned Customer

In one sense I would agree with you. My position stems from LL's own statement in their section about Alts on the website where they state clearly that they treat alts as separate entities. Either they ARE separate entities or they are not. If they ARE separate entities (which LL the Gods of this world say they are) then yep separate license for each separate entity. Because to do otherwise is not different than "giving copies to other people."

Up to a point. It's not unheard of, as I understand it, for someone's alts to get banned along with the main character if the offense is serious enough, even though the alt's behaviour may well have been exemplary.

Most texture stores use a policy similar to TRU.

That entitles you to use, save, reupload and alter those textures to fit your needs.
But explicitly forbids any forwarding to 3rd parties.
So I do share them with my alt, but don't give or sell them to others, not the originals or the altered ones.

I think clear expectations is important, therefor I favor stores that have a clear agreement.

ok let me try this again.

There is no way for me to tell an alt from a main. We simply are not given tools for this.

I am out one day and see my texture used on a build created by someone that is not on the list of people that purchased that texture. I have ZERO way to know if that is an alt of someone that DID purchase legitimately so report content theft is the next step.

My position on this covers my butt yes but it also covers the butts of the content creators using my textures.

For all I know that offending object might well have been a copybotted version of something originally created by a legitimate buyer of my texture.

Which is tied to what I've been saying about how Second Life needs everybody to positively provide their true RL identity to Linden Lab, to be permanently kept on file, and have all their avatars blanket registered under one umbrella account. This way if somebody passes a texture on to an alt, uses it, and somebody thinks it might be illegal, they file a report, Linden Lab checks their details, and finds out, oh, well, RockAndRoll Michigan is also Yngwie Krogstad, and Yngwie Krogstad bought this texture. No offense committed, case closed.

Unfortunately, that idea does not fall under "Linden Logic". (tm)

LL may treat different avs as seperate entities (up to a point, as Innula pointed out), but that's LL. The dealings in SL are nothing to do with LL, other than they own SL.

And yet, in the earlier post, you say:-

In this case you still have no way of knowing whether or not the person operating the av that made the object bought the textures legitimately.

In that quote, you say, "You still have 1 licensed copy which is what you paid for.", which is true, but it's the phrase "what you paid for" that's tells the story. You acknowledge that you the person and not the av paid for the license to make copies, which is what I'm talking about. Check mate, I think

This is an interesting intersection of business and philosophy. Where does identity obtain? I just know that in reality, that expensive texture bundle costs a dollar. I also know that the creator works hard and may be relying on this business to pay some of the bills. Just like I do with mine. I'm not going to use the "hey, it's just a game" excuse to rip someone off or not compensate them for their efforts. They didn't sell their products to me, the RL individual. They sold them to my avi. My alt is not the same "person."

I've been ripped off plenty. I even had someone ask for technical help with a product they admitted a friend had copied and given to them. Come on, folks, a little Golden Rule here.

Umm.. I didn't mean to open a can of worms by saying I had transferred the texture to my alt and deleted them from my main.

I really only did it because I couldn't find the store that sold them, in the craptastic search engine of SL. I even did it by creator name, but no luck, apparently, they had pulled out too. Yes, their profile was still there, it just said that they were no longer in business... >.< Well, I transferred the textures to my alt, cleared it off the main completely and went on my merry way. I would have gladly repurchased them, however.

Rusalka, I'm not sure there is a golden rule anymore except for those of us who were raised with it - a group which seems to be dwindling generation after generation.

Maybe this is a period of history like the USA in the 20's when decadence and high functioning criminal sociopaths rule the day. Maybe when we finish this global crash we will, as a people, realize what we have created. Maybe not.

Someone on a blog I read linked to a George Carlin routine on why he never voted. While funny, there was a truth there that disturbed me...and continues to disturb me. Our politicians, thieves, criminals, financial traders, corporate executives, fraudsters, con men (you know, they people who are currently running our countries) they are us. They are our neighbors, they are our friends, they have been raised by our parents, they are a product of our schools and they are a product of our culture.

Our culture has become corrupt. Over on SLU, they've been bandying around the questions: how many content creators in SL are using illegal copies of Photoshop? Maya? Poser? A few people came forward to verify they were using fully paid for software, but otherwise there was a whole lot of silence. How can a content creator using a pirated copy of Photoshop justify howling about content theft? The fact is, self-interest and greed are hard-coded into our DNA. It takes a lot of societal conditioning to teach children to share, that stealing is wrong and that our survival as a species is dependent on sharing and community. Alone, we perish. Together, we build cities and countries.
All throughout known history it has always been easier to steal your neighbors grain than to grow your own. All societies develop laws and punishments related to theft.

Somewhere along the way, the societal norms have been corrupted. Stealing is ok as long as you don't get caught for a whole lot of people. Fraud and deception run rampant among the ruling class and you either play ball or sit on the sidelines. Fraud and theft go unpunished in at the top of the society food chain now and have for some time. Sure, we send the occasional Madoff to jail to ease populist anger, but one guy out of thousands does nothing to stem the corruption. When people are surrounded by corruption and it's in full view, they ask themselves why they should be lawful and do right. Those with looser ethical standards will shrug and get into the game. The more people who jump the fence and stop caring about ethics, the less stigma that is attached to doing so. What we are seeing now is the result of years of loose ethical standards applied to the people we call leaders of society.

The corruption is us. It is who we are as a people at this point in history. We can only pray that things like honor, honesty and dignity return as things valued in society because they certainly aren't now.

We're not talking about ripping anyone off. Your first question is what we're discussing - "Where does the identity obtain?" I have a different answer to you. If I buy something in SL, I the person buys it with my $L. My L$ may be with different alts, but it's still my L$ and me doing the buying.

I don't insist that my view is the only correct one, but I do insist that it is *a* correct one Imo, if sellers insist that the license is for the av and not for the person behind the av, then they ought to make it clear in store signs that can be read before buying the items, although I don't see how a bunch of pixels can be licensed for anything, or buy anything, or own anything, etc. The av doesn't have the SL account - the person does.

I think both points of view could be considered "a correct one". Certainly, "I" feel like me, no matter what account I'm signed in with. And it's all "my" money (Hear that, you alts?)

But SL is not set up to tie a number of accounts to a single RL individual, not as far as events in world are concerned. There's no need for a merchant to "make it clear in a store sign", because it is, de facto, the way the world works. Nobody can tell if this or that avatar "really" belongs to the same RL person as that other avatar. Merchants must treat them as separate people, they have no other choice.

So while I may agree with Phil on a philosophical level, it has little practical application until or unless LL makes some changes in How Things Work.

I agree that a seller, who sees an object with his/her texture on it, can't tell if the creator is the same person who bought the texture. But when Darkness sold textures, he said that it's ok to pass it between alts, as long as only one av has it. He had no way of knowing whether or not the creator 'person' bought the texture.

There's an easy way of handling such an event. IM the creator and ask how come s/he put the texture on without having bought it (that's what would happen if it happened to be a stolen copy). The creator could then satisfy the seller that s/he actually bought it.

ETA:
I disagree that "it is, de facto, the way the world works". I've been in SL for 3 years and it would never have occured to me that, if I buy a builder's edition of something, only one alt is allowed to possess it at any one time, or that I wouldn't be allowed to even give it to my builder alt and remove from my own inventory, and I would think that there is a vast number of people who it wouldn't have occured to.

Do you still have a texture shop? If so, let me know. I will be very careful what I buy there. If it's something I think I will use often, and would need to buy more than once per your no-alt agreement, I will make sure not to buy it.

You are selling to a person, not the toon representing them. No matter what the toon is called or looks like, your contract is with the human being operating the toon, not the toon.

At 10L that is a bargain for a good texture, and when I was not building often or much, I might have gone by your agreement happily. But once you get into thousands of textures as some builders have in inventory, it becomes unwieldy to repurchase them all, to say the least. It does not mean they are passing them to other human beings; that much is a clear no-no to most, and it's also made clear in the signs and note cards for those who are not as sure.

The texture packs I buy range anywhere from a few hundred $Linden dollars for from 5 to 20 textures, to a few thousand $Lindens for that many, or for a fatpack (depending on type of textures and the shop's price range.) Most textures I see are 50 L$ and up, not $10L. There is no way I could afford to repurchase the exact same thing, for the exact same purpose, multiple times.

I know people do that for clothes, but they sort of have to, plus, most people's alts do not wear the exact same things as their main anyway, right? Sort of defeats the purpose of having another 'doll' to dress up so to speak (or another persona, if some prefer.)

But one time I recall a costume party and the costume was no longer made - it was transfer no copy. So I sent it to the other account, wore it and sent it back. One human being = one purchase price = fair usage of the item, to my mind at least.

If texture makers have a no-alt policy I hope they will post it clearly. I will make sure not to shop there.

Personally, I see alts as the same person. If someone wants something for an alt, and both say they're the same person, I generally say yes. For building tools, like my Netporter, I absolutely see no reason to make them buy a second copy for their building alt.

Yes, maybe I'll get ripped off. A few people might get a free copy of something that has zero marginal cost of production to me. That doesn't bother me.

But if that bothers you, or you're seeing a lot of people doing it, then that's your call. Just saying what my policy is.

Correct. Unless the texture seller is willing to refund the money of anyone who buys their textures and disagrees with the license provisions spelled out in the included notecard, then it becomes a contract of adhesion, which the courts have consistently ruled is unenforceable.

I think I would enjoy making and selling textures but every time I see one of these discussions I decide I'd rather not worry about wanting to report seeing my textures on the builds of avs who didn't buy them from me.
Under your solution, RockandRoll, if I complained the Lindens could verify that the builder was an alt of a buyer - but I think they would need permission from that person before they could explain anything about them and their alts to me. Which would not make your solution impossible but would make it that much more complicated.


eta: I use only software that I bought (ancient PSP, Photoshop Elements) or is open source (The Gimp)

Thoughtful and valid observations, Isablan.

I make my own alts come to the store to purchase furniture for their homes.

My stuff is transferable, but if there is a reason like losing it during a landlord wiping their home clean, or some kind of inventory problem....I don't mind replacing it at all, to them directly....but if they ask if it can be sent to an alt....I can honestly say that "I'm sorry, but even my own alts would have to come in and purchase it, for themselves."

But your alts have a pretty good credit plan there, right? ;p

If it's transferable, they can send it to their own alt. Or, the gift option vendor someone mentioned is a good plan, too, I think.

Here's an interesting point: I (my avatar) am a pole-dancer. However, when my avatar is up on that pole and receiving tips, who is actually doing any of the work: The avatar who is running through a predefined loop of animations? Or is the real work being performed by the person behind the avatar, at the keyboard typing up her emotes and chatting up the guests?

After all, the only difference between an active avatar and a bot is who - or what - is at the keyboard.

Actually no. They get an allowance every week. Making them decorate out of that allowance, kind of gives me an idea of what amount the items need to be priced at.

Melita

No I don't have a texture shop any longer we shut it down about a year ago when we got sick of tracking down the culprits who were putting our textures in all perms freebie boxes. When creating stopped being fun and started being a royal pain in the butt it was time to shut down.

I agree with the folks that say it need to be clearly in the licensing and available prior to purchase. Then the end user can either choose to abide by the license or not purchase.

Textures are one of those things that are simply ugly to deal with and maintain any sort of control over IP. Hence I am done with that business even though it was quite lucrative for many years.

Please, don't give him/her anything.

No, the person pestered me half the day yesterday, then tried apologizing again and again. I don't want to be complicit in their having violated LL's TOS by returning with an alt, and I really hate being hassled for something that costs less than $2.