It's in a mall, now

First post just because I'm one of those "antisocial guests"......
I personally dislike clubs for the fact they are clique-ish and only go when my boyfriend wants me to dance with him. Often I do enter the themed contests (although lately I do reluctantly), and I'm there to win it, not to be popular or get in the clique. I've seen it too often when "regulars" or buddy-buddies of the DJ/host/owner win the contests and that's a big turn-off as well as they all talk amongst each other and the subjects are not something I like to get into.
Most of the time I'm in IMs with my SO or busy with certain group chats.

Long ago we had "Club" on our island. But it wasn't ever intended to be a club club. It was just a western themed place for various family members to throw dances when they felt like it. Surprisingly even though our events were in no way on a consistent schedule we often did have 10-15 live people show up. It was just a fun thing to do and not intended to be a money maker. Conversations would go in the wildest directions but that was part of the fun of it all.

I think the situation with many "Clubs" these days is they have become something of a BIOB and there is little genuine effort put in by the owners. They think oh cool I will own a club and get rich. Well very very few clubs ever make a profit. SO it sits unattended with a few bots to generate traffic. Live people that pop in cant find other live people and pop out just as quickly. Its a sad state of affairs really. Going clubbing used to be a great deal of fun.

Clubs are expensive money-sinks.

A social club like Toby's has no source of revenue to offset the costs of maintaining the club and the sim. That's an expensive hobby.

Many clubs are in malls because malls are the actual money-makers. The club draws traffic, and the people who come to the club hopefully wander around to the mall and are enticed into shopping.

A strip club may seem like it would be profitable, since dancers are tipped and the club gets a cut of the tips. But it doesn't usually work out that way. Especially in the past year where tipping is way, way down.

That's why you see clubs becoming parts of malls. Because a club on its own is an expensive hobby for the owners.

The way traffic works, a club that is mediocre 24 hours a day gets higher traffic numbers than a club that is good a few hours a day.

A two-hour event with an average of 12 people at any one time (a decent crowd number in my opinion) gets the same traffic number as one idle person generates over a 24-hour period.

It's hard to run a good club when traffic so dominates the search system which top a list of non-viable ways to get customers. The traffic numbers are set up against someone running good events as opposed to having idlers all the time.

Anya! I almost called you the other night when I was sitting in a "jazz" club that was advertised in the Showcase ads in the Music category.

When you arrived....you were greeted by a hostess....but it was weird, because she had a store tag on, and because the land was titled with a store name. Thought I took the wrong tp.

The club was tucked away, down some stairs behind her....and your tendency would be to go to the right of her, or the left of her....instead of plowing her down to get to the club. Right or Left put you inside the Store.

I sat in the club for over an hour and watched people drop in to the landing point. They wandered about, then tp'd out. I bet they were confused, too. The club was tiny....just a ploy...no events scheduled...no stage....did not notice a place to dance....this was prime-time mingling hour....and the music was techno music - same music the store played.

But if you scanned just right, you could IM men in the shirt department, while getting sloshed at the bar. And great way to get your store into the Showcase ads.

I visited a showcase club yesterday. It turned out to be a casino. I won't miss showcase.

The night before that, I had a pretty good Showcase tour. For the most part, they were definitely places that needed to be Showcased. But the following night....I picked duds. With all the great places to visit out there....there shouldn't be duds on the list.

Well, I've spent two and a half hours in a club mentioned in this thread; one I visited when it was new and they had a major SL live artist. It's a great build, they play good music and I had high hopes for it. The crowd tonight peaked at about 25.

Two and a half hours of nothing but greetings, farewells, tipping and gesture spam. If they're bots they're better than the ones I've seen lately; more like the "good" one I mentioned earlier. Still, nobody who isn't completely socially inept is going to come here for conversation.

At least it's not in a mall.

Wouldn't you know it, just now as I was about to give up I see a couple lines of actual conversation on my screen.

I have some things I'm going to try on the chat log...

Back in "06/07" I owned an escort/dance club. I opened it as a way to fulfill a fantasy in SL that I couldn't possibly afford to do in RL. I started off with 2048sq m. and quickly rose in tier to 8192sq m. on the mainland. Eventually I opened a small mall on the roof with 10 spaces, 15 perms each and very low rent just to supplement income a tiny bit. I spent on average 40+ hours a week there and employed a GM and a shift manager as well as 30 escorts and 10 dancers.

I paid my GM and shift manager a stipend of L$400/week and L$300/week respectively, plus 20% of the clubs income since I never intended to make money running a club. Our escorts and dancers kept 80 percent of what they made. It took about 6 months to establish a decent group of regulars, around 9 people, and our traffic finally got up to about 4K/day and upwards of 6K/day when we ran events, which we did 3 times a week, twice a day. We never offered camping, contest boards or used bots, just well trained, friendly staff, music, videos, events, 4 private themed rooms and hard work.

Twice within a 3 month period I had a shift manager leave to start their own club. I encouraged and supported the first one until she went out of her way to steal 3 of our regulars. After the second one also started her own club and stole away 2 more of our regulars our traffic began to spiral downwards. After10 months of working my butt off to build a modest amount of traffic I was worn out and didn’t have the desire left to try and build the lost traffic back so after a little over a year total I closed the place.

Back in “06” clubs seemed to be pretty popular but as more and more sprang up it became harder and harder to make an honest go of one. Also I think the novelty wore off. I’d spend, including tier, around $50.00/month keeping the club open and only recouped around $10.00/month but it was a labor of love and never a money making venture. So I think its really difficult to run a successful club and my hats off to anyone who can do it.

If these were bots, they didn't do anything really dumb, like repeat the same odd statement with two different avatars, or at two different times during the evening. And the greetings and farewells seemed to be in the right order, unlike the first automated chat I encountered two years ago. If they were bots, they were better bots than most clubs have.

But come on, nobody talks like that. Three hours of nothing but greetings, farewells, tipping, and praise for the DJ?

I went through and replaced all greetings with "[HELLO]", farewells with "[BYE]", thank-you's with "[THANKS]", etc. Basically, almost the entire conversation can be reduced to these:

WELCOME - welcome to the club
HELLO
BYE - good bye, good night, etc
LOL - lol, giggles, lmao, smiles, etc
THANKS
YW - you're welcome
GREATTUNE - content-free comment on the music, e.g. great tune!
DJ - praise the DJ, like spam but shorter
AFK - I'm going afk
HB - hurry back
BACK - I'm back
WOOT - woot, oh yeah, etc
LAG - a comment about the lag

and the gesture spam:

SPAM-DJ - cheering the DJ
SPAM-VENUE - cheering the venue, thanks everyone for coming, etc
SPAM-TUNE - I love this song
SPAM-HOO - Hoooo!, howls, yeehaws, etc
SPAM-THANKS - thanks for tip (gesture)
SPAM-VOTE - beg for votes
SPAM-TIP - beg for tips
SPAM-TP - teleport in your friends!

When you reduce it this way you get almost nothing left. Here's a sample:

DJ1: [BYE]
PERSON3: [BYE]
PERSON5: Phats is making me giggley
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [BYE]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON5: awwww
PERSON5: Phats is such a gentelaman
HOST1: [SPAM-HOO]
PERSON5: [SPAM-HOO]
HOST1: [SPAM-DJ]
PERSON5: [SPAM-HOO]
HOST1: [SPAM-HOO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
PERSON7: [SPAM-HOO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-VENUE]
PERSON13: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON14: [HELLO]
PERSON5: [DJ]
HOST1: [THANKS]
HOST1: [SPAM-THANKS]
HOST1: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-VENUE]
PERSON9: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-VENUE]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
PERSON11: [HELLO]
HOST1: [THANKS]
PERSON11: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-THANKS]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
PERSON15: [YW]
HOST1: [HELLO]
HOST1: [WELCOME]
MANAGER: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
DJ1: [THANKS]
HOST1: [HELLO]
MANAGER: [HELLO]
PERSON15: [YW]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON16: [HELLO]
HOST1: [WELCOME]
PERSON19: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-DJ]
MANAGER: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
MANAGER: [HELLO]
PERSON19: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-TUNE]
HOST1: [SPAM-HOO]
PERSON19: [HELLO]
PERSON11: [LAG]
MANAGER: [LAG]
PERSON21: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [WOOT]
DJ1: [GREATTUNE]
DJ1: mmm mmmmm
PERSON3: [GREATTUNE]
PERSON7: [LOL]
PERSON7: [LAG]
DJ1: hahahah gets some smelling salts
PERSON3: [LOL]
PERSON3: [THANKS]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON7: [YW]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
PERSON7: [LAG]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
PERSON7: geez
HOST1: [SPAM-VENUE]
HOST1: [SPAM-TIP]
PERSON18: [HELLO]
PERSON3: [HELLO]
HOST1: [HELLO]
HOST1: [SPAM-VENUE]
HOST1: [SPAM-DJ]
PERSON3: [GREATTUNE]
HOST1: [SPAM-VOTE]

That is, there was no real conversation in three hours. None.

It's comical how many times people were thanked for tips, followed by your-welcome. And the Hurry backs. And the I-love-this-songs. Just how much conversation can you get out of hellos and goodbyes? Totally. Frickin. Ridiculous.

This was Hotlanta Blues, BTW.

Well, I have watched real, non-bot residents have extended interactions based solely on triggering gestures.

Here's the sad thing. You may suspect that people do it because they aren't capable of real conversation. Maybe that's true for some. But for others, they think they are supposed to be using all the canned gestures, and doing nothing but greetings, fairwells, and so forth. They think it's the culture of Second Life and are trying to fit in.

I've had a few occasions where guests come into my club, spam up the place with gestures- and when I IM them politely not to do so, they actually turn into good conversationalists.

The way people try to fit into a new social situation is to mirror what others are doing. And when they walk into their first club and see the gestures spam, many figure, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Well I am not a club person, but still do have my thoughts about it

What do you think of the controversial statement: Most clubs do not make it, because most avatars want to have everything for free.

People want to go to a club, have a great time, but refuse to pay for that entertainment. And if they tip, it is not the house they tip but the DJ for example. The few times I went to events, I saw that happen.
Same with classes. I went to a class for Sculpt Studio, which was for free. I was almost ashamed how few people did tip the teacher, and how little they tipped.

So how surprising is it, that venue owners try to earn some money through making their club into a mall, or put up (traffic) bots with the idea to get more customers in, who might pay a little in tips? Not many people start something in SL without at least the hope to get some of their costs recouped. Why does a club owner have to put in 50-100 real life dollars to entertain other people?

Too many people in SL are freeloaders. They want to have a free account, and want the rest for free as well. Now there is nothing wrong with trying to keep your SL on a low budget, but I think you should expect to pay a little for your entertainment. Tipping 250 linden to the venue owner costs you 1 dollar. And it helps keeping the place open. If everyone keeps expecting to get everything for free, clubs will not make it. Again, you cannot expect others to pay for your entertainment, period.

If I were to open up a club, it would be a club with cover charge. Someone should start with that. If done right, a new club CAN be a success, even with cover charge. If you make sure that people know what to expect, and get worth for their lindens, you will attract the people you want in your club. People who come to have a good time, and are not afraid to spend a few lindens on that. More then half of the work, will be in the marketing, and the first months would cost money of course. But in the end, this concept can be a success.

Seven Ultra Lounge used to charge a fee, they're closed now but before they closed they'd waived the fees. You're right regarding fees, that's why malls are attached to clubs, because the club itself doesn't generate money, no cover charge, no fee for drinks, staff to account for etc. Tricky situation to address because so many other places will be free.

That is indeed the case, on the other hand so many other places do not deliver either.

The only way to succeed in this, is with a solid business and marketing plan. Too many people think that slapping down a club building is all there is to managing a club. Just like managing a business is more then putting your stuff up for sale, managing a club is more then providing a venue and a music stream.
The key is knowing what you want to offer to people, and knowing how to reach your target audience. Both are hardly addressed by most club starters.

I totally would not mind actually PAYING for admission to a club, if that would mean:

* no bots
* no gesture spams
* no "dj invites all his friends to sing his praise"
* no mall (or at least a GOOD mall)

Most people are unwilling to pay for something they can get for free... and in SL, there really isn't anything a club owner can provide that they can't get for free. It's not the club that's providing the entertainment, it's the people there. You could have the same experience in a sandbox, or any other random parcel... including the bottom of a Linden sea.

In fact I really don't understand why people expect clubs to be anything more than a place people might be hanging out in, or go to clubs expecting the fact that it's called a "club" to mean all that much. A good deal of the mystique about clubs in SL mystifies me. I don't go to Club Seal to go to a club, Club Seal is just a sign in a sim I'm hanging out in anyway.

Arising from what Argent said, one of the best clubs I know, run by a friend of mine, is a club in the original sense of the word.. a group of people with a common interest who've got together to realise it. They've got a specific core market -- the francophone BDSM crowd -- and they now occupy most of a sim. They've covered it in very nice, imaginative builds, and do all sorts there besides the obvious -- parties, sailing lessons, movies, hanging out...

Their traffic, and they're usually pretty busy, is mostly word of mouth, as far as I can see; people invite their friends along. They try to cover their costs with contributions from group members, but the idea isn't to make money -- it's to be able to do stuff in SL they enjoy doing in each other's company.

Mmmhmmm... Clubs. My experience in-world is such that, at least for music venues, it is the complete reverse of the real world experience. It does seem to be the perfect "social" situation for the (my term for the group) socially inept. This group includes everyone from those who really have no clue in regard to socializing, to those who are just looking for a place to park so they can a) get some work done or b) have their own little happy hour in im's or group chats, all while listening to the music of their choice. Those who are actually craving real interaction are oft times confused and put off by this group, especially in the atmosphere of a club. Me, personally, I can create enough real time, off the cuff conversation for an entire evening - so it doesn't really bother me. Though the idea of parking to do work while listening to music of your choice does boggle my mind - considering one with a rented/owned parcel has their choice of a plethora of stations at their finger tips. lol

I digress... There are real, actual, labor of love clubs out there. Ones with actual people behind the keyboard who are truly there for socializing, conversation and all out fun. Yeah, most are not in "showcase," "top listing" or whathaveyou, but they are out there all the same. My adoptive family runs one (I say this out of fear of them now chasing me down to chastise me) that isn't "on" 24/7, but when we do have the live dj's/events, the place is normally hopping. Chatter is aplenty and sometimes from out in left field. We've had several new residents pop in and after five minutes make the comment, "this is the first place I've been where people actually talked to me." That statement says it all when it comes to clubs, at least imnsho.

Anyway.. Best of luck and fun with the club hopping. It can be an adventure, for sure.

Do you have a landmark to this?



Are you sure this one hasn't moved? The only one I could find is on Marco Island.

I for one rarely tip dancers or hosts. I go to live music venues quite often—every day or so. I typically give both the musician and the venue a modest tip. I've scaled back my tipping, as I was spending well over $50USD every month ENTIRELY on tips.

For me, the only services I care for is the venue space and the musician. Why tip the host or dancer? They aren't providing me with a service. I'm there dancing too, why not tip me. Hosts... hosts... most host suck. They "might" say hello to you when you enter—sometimes they don't even notice you. I don't tip for hello's. A host might get a tip for very effectively working the crowd, telling jokes, keeping people entertained, etc. I've had hosts that greeted me with a hello after I'd already been at the venue for a good half hour. It's obvious they were "subtlety" trying to kiss-ass to get a tip out of me.

I went to a show the other day with 4 dancers and a host. Am I really going to blow my lindens to tip the musician, venue, host, and all the dancers? Nope.

I tip the musician because they're the reason I'm there and I tip the venue because they provided the space and I know their costs are high. Nobody else really provides anything I care about. Indeed, you could get rid of the hosts and dancers and I wouldn't even notice. I'd probably be happier actually, cuz then I wouldn't have to bother muting gesture-spammers.

1920 Berin is place that desperately needs a mall of some kind. Put it in a skybox with a teleport from the landing point or something to keep from killing the ambiance. Require the shops in the sim to conform to a covenant or building code to maintain the atmosphere.

I'm certain I am not the only person who went there, read the strict dress code, saw no acceptable options at the landing point, and left.

The only 'real' people left in SL are those in the forum, and one or two of those I have my suspicions about.

Rock

Sorry guys I couldn't read all of your comments, I am actually an EX Club owner and one of the ones who put their heart and soul into it I had a LOT of amazing followers, aLOT of money grabbers and a LOT fo terrible staff.

As some comments have said, people just will NOT greet guests pasta "hello" or a stupid welcome gesture, it's a real crowd killer as well when (in erotic places) dancers bloody emote to one another and not the crowd.

My club/s were all a mix fo fun and sex, and it worked brilliantly when I was there
but the managers could never get it to work, so it just fell to shit and eventually the staff got so bad I closed donw shop, and re started my friends list.

I found as much as I loved it, It's not a one person job and if you don't have the right staff supporting you it just never happens. Right now I own an art galery of erotic art i took during my club days, all the exhibits are interactive and I guess you could use ti as a venue easily. But I'm MUCH happier to let it all go and focus on somethign I know I can do without falling down.

There is a Savoy Ballroom in Virtual Harlem, but I think it is more a museum, not a club. The Savoy Jazz Club is in Marco Island, and I am one of the owners of it. No bots, gaudy decorations and we actually play jazz music and blues. Yeah, I'm pimping us out, but since people are asking about where to find live people, I can vouch for our humanity....lol.

Anya, The Savoy in Virtual Harlem is a "club," in the sense that it has all most of what one expect in a club, namely music and dance balls. It also has a lovely ambience, along with the rest of the sim, which is very nicely done, and well worth a visit. Virtual Harlem also has The Cotton Club, which I don't like quite so well.

But neither The Savoy Ballroom nor the Cotton Club has greeters . . . or, usually, many people. I am not looking for either, generally (as I said above, I rarely go to a club without a dance partner already in tow), so that doesn't bother me at all. And I find the period jazz and the build itself utterly charming. But I wouldn't go to either to meet people.

In any case, I'll try to remember to send you an LM next time I'm in-world.

Crighton, I have quite enjoyed my visits to YOUR Savoy, as well; in fact, I have a shot of myself there in a flapper dress (dancing, I think, to a performance by Nina Brandenburg), that I sometimes use as wallpaper for my comp.

ETA: Anya, I'll also send you a LM to Berlin 1920. The best time to go there is about noonish or so SLT, as most of the patrons are Europeans. They have (still, I think), a "happy hour," but I've forgotten when it is.

There was also a sometimes mildly acrimonious thread here on the place a few months back:

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