Ripped off?

I run a business in SL called TeaZe Studios, with my Partner, Mandi. We're really new, and recently just finished completing our shop. As we continue to produce more artwork and tattoos to sell, I have been taking on custom jobs, such as logo designs, character commissions, and tattoo designs. Well, being new at this business thing, I agreed to create a logo for a client without collecting any fees prior to starting. I created the logo and sent it to him for approval. He replied back that the logo was almost perfect and there are only a couple of minor details he needs to have changed. I was very happy with the response, and after listening to promises of more business through recommendations, I logged off. My client had to show his colleagues the logo before giving any more input, and we agreed to speak the next day.

After almost one week, i hear nothing from him. I leave him 2-3 IM's per day and hope to hear back from him. I also notice, i never see him online anymore, but through means I won't disclose I was able to find out he was online every single day since we last spoke. Eventually, he gets in touch with me and claims he was too busy to talk. I express my malcontent with the way he decides to do business with me and he becomes offended by my accusations of being unprofessional and decided to end the agreement. We agree on half payment and he explains he is having problems with his credit card being approved through SL or something like that. I tell him i understand, but if possible i would appreciate having the money within the next 3 days.

10 days later, i get no messages from him, but an acquaintance of his messages me saying he had requested she pay me the money he owes. I tell her if she had made arrangements with him to pay in his stead, i will accept it. She then tells me he had never made any agreement with me, and that i have been harassing him. I ask her not to get involved, and i sent him a message just now requesting payment. And i received no answer.

I'm at the point where I'm unsure how to proceed. Does anyone have any advice?

thank you. xoxox
Llourn Rhode

does a

Unfortunately it is between the two of you. Linden won't take any action in resident disputes unless it is a TOS violation.

In the real world you'd have lots of options. In the wide open and unregulated world of Second Life, you're pretty much sc**wed.

You can report him to LL, but they are unlikely to get involved.

In the future, never send anyone an approval copy without a nice big watermark on it. If it's a tatoo, maybe send a photo of it being worn by an avatar...anything to make it useless or at least difficult to copy and rip off.

If it's an image that other folks would find useful, you might consider offering it free to the community. If it's in wide distribution and not exclusive to your former client, it'll lose its value to him.

From your post, it sounds like your relationship with the client has been pretty well poisoned. Unless you feel the need for further angst and drama, I'd chalk it up to experience and move on. I do custom scripting work and when i send out approval versions to my clients, i make sure that it is crippled for most purposes other than making sure it fits the clients needs - e.g. no copy/ no mod / no transfer. Once the client has approved and paid for it, then they get the full permissions version. Setting restrictive permissions and slapping on a big 'Demo' watermark on the approval samples you send to the client should reduce future headaches.

Okay... here's where you went wrong:



Note that according to the Terms of Service, Section 5.1, it's a dispute between two residents, and they won't get involved. There's also nothing to file an Abuse Report over.

It was your decision. Everything that happened cascaded from that. In the future don't make decisions like that.

I have a feeling that even on a more realistic setting (IE: RL) you would have problems proving that he ever commissioned you to create the logo, unless you kept record of it. That the digital plane facilitates paperless transactions makes things all the more difficult.

It is possible that you could file a small claims suit against this individual, but realistically, would it be worth it? I forget what the maximum amount for a small claims suit is for the United States, but certainly it would have to be above the administrative costs as well as your additional lost time to really make it worth the time to file such a suit against this individual.

If the amount you agreed to is indeed worth it, then you really ought to dig up your logs of the conversation where you agreed to this and look in to how your proof could be substantiated in court.

I think you would also find difficulty making your case given that much of this was agreed to on a fairly informal basis, you released your intellectual property willingly before payment, and the person on the other end of the line is probably finding a lot of comfort in his anonymity.

If it is not worth the time, then I would suggest that you take a lesson from this experience.

As an illustrator and designer, unless I have specifically signed a work for hire, wage paid contract, I will generally require a fair chunk of the payment to be made up front as a non-refundable deposit. This covers materials and time spent on the project, whether the client decides to go with your work or not.

Generally, the best idea is to cover all of this in a contract, no matter how small the project, because as with this case, the end user might otherwise use your intellectual property for things it was never intended for . Establishing useage as well as payment over a set schedule will also facilitate in the creation of the work - IE: you will have funds to work with should you need to spend monies on incidentals and living expenses, instead of having to wait for a lump sum at the end of the project. This also allows for the establishment of a 'kill fee' if for some reason your client decides to back out of the agreement.

I think Llourn understands that now. Don't rub it in, I'm sure he feels cruddy enough.

Llourn, hopefully it won't happen again. Good luck with trying to get your compensation.

In RL contractors commonly require an upfront payment (often one-third of the total value) big enough so that the contractor won't be much hurt if the customer reneges. Publications commonly guarantee free-lance writers a "kill fee" perhaps coincidentally also one-third to one-half depending on the work involved) because the free-lancer can never get back the time he spent on a rejected story. Many stores require a substantial deposit for any item they will have to pay an outside supplier for before delivery to the customer. I think you may have just discovered the reason why. I would suggest chalking it up to tuition in the school of hard knocks and resolve to require mutually tolerable earnest money in future dealings with people you don't know well enough to trust them with money.

You do mention an altercation with the "customer." Without arguing the he-said-she-said of it, it is always wise to stay very cool and polite (or at least civil) with someone you want to get money from. This is not usually a real hindrance - you will be amazed at how much you can say politely if you put your mind to it - but will help protect from misunderstandings arising because of bruised egos.

I would also suggest continuing to request this person fulfill their obligations whatever they may be in the agreement. You may never see the money, but if you stop seeking it, for sure you will never see it.

Finally, I've noticed some sellers of high-value items requiring try-out or customer review use devices like temp rezzes and scripts that disable or delete after a certain time period. Sounds like some such method of submitting for review that makes it impossible for a welsher to use the product without paying for it would be a good idea.

Good luck with your new venture.

It varies from state to state, and there may be limits on how much you can collect over and above the actual amount owed for the item. I'd be surprised if you could collect for the time spent dealing with the case.

But you're right, this isn't likely to be worthwhile. It should be a lesson for the original poster. If it's any consolation, this sort of stuff isn't specific to SL. Consultants and other people doing custom work get stiffed all the time.

Many clothing designers who take commissions require half of the fee as down payment, and the final half payable upon completion and delivery of the final outfit.

Hehe, true. Seeking reparations based on the headaches for having to chase the guy around generally doesn't happen. I think i was just looking at it from the personal cost to the OP in relation to pursuing payment - not in terms of any cost that he could try to reclaim.

Oh, gosh. I'm sorry. Let me provide a hug.

*hugs*

Notice how the hug resolved the entire situation, unmade the decision, and the money magically flew out of the client's pocket and into the OP's?

Nope. Why? They made a bad decision. It can't be unmade. It was their decision. We can't unmake it. Other residents nor the Lindens can enforce contracts.

If they don't want to be informed about their bad decision then don't ask: "Does anyone have any advice?"

Yes... don't make decisions like that.

Business isn't about hugs. It's about money. The OP took their eye off the money.

I knew LL wouldn't be able to help, since it really has nothing to do with them.
I may have to chalk this up to experience.

At this point I do collect half of the fee to start, and the other half after showing an uncopyable/useable version of the product. Usually a rough sketch or watermarked product.

thank you all for your feedback.

He asked for ADVISE, not to be pointed out the obvious. Is there ANYTHING you say or do EVER... that isn't intended to make people feel worse about themselves or actions?

If not he could make a killing selling Sour Miserable Bastard Avatars

And we could all make a killing selling STFU Elex HUDS...

Couldn't this be considered theft of IP? Afterall, it is your creation. If it is, then you could probably file some sort of AR.

Have seen nothing so far. Imagine what a miserable person this must be, living with himself all day, down there in Mom's basement (maybe it has rats?).

The specific decision that caused the cascade of terrible terrible events was:



The OP is seeking advice (and most likely sympathy) for the terrible terrible events that were the result of the bad decision.

And apparently that isn't obvious. Or there wouldn't be a thread.

He wants someone to resolve the situation. To enforce the contract for them. To either undue the bad thing or come up with a way to pry the money out of the pocket of the client. And no one can.

No amount of hugs, happy-face stickers, cotton candy, or puppet shows, will resolve the situation.

It's business. It's about money. If you take your eyes off the money you don't get a hug. If, after taking your eyes off the money, you still refuse to kick yourself in the pants over it, no worries, someone will come by and provide the kick in the pants that will refocus things on the money.

@Dytska> Technically yes, a small claims suit would cover this case. But as I mentioned before, the suit would be difficult to win and perhaps not worth the time given the highly informal nature of the agreement, the medium in which the agreement was made (IE: anonymous contact). Now, if that logo were suddenly to appear as the logo for a major multimillion dollar company, if the possibility for returns exceeded the initial cost of creating the work, as well as licensing of the appropriate copyrights, and if the OP had documented proof of the negotiation and development of the product with the client, perhaps there would be a possibility.... but given the described situation, I have my doubts.

It's technically a work-for-hire situation. It's the client's intellectual property (they originated it) and the artist is awaiting payment.

I have to disagree. The client may have directed the creation of the intellectual property, but the full, exclusive use of the data and final work created by the OP does not change hands unless a written and signed document specifically signing over those rights is signed by both parties. (//EDIT: this should have occurred before any work took place, however)

Even if such a document had been signed, it would have been made null and void by the fact that the OP was never paid (and thus the agreement was never fulfilled).

I wasn't looking for sympathy, just verification.
I was also hoping there would be some kind of solution, where i could get the money I'm owed.

Obviously, there's nothing I can do short of taking him to court. And well, it's not worth it.

Thanks again for the input.
Llourn Rhode.

(Also, I'd just like to clarify, I'm a woman. )

So.. you're saying the logo i designed is still my property.
The only concern I have then is if he tries to use my work without paying me for it.

The OP is _awaiting_ payment.

And.. contracts are unenforceable in Second Life as there is no authoritive body to enforce them.

However... how much money is at stake here? Let's hang an amount on this thing. Not the hours involved. The actual amount of expected payment.