Zyngo Ethics

I posted this question on the XstreetSL flog but it was deleted. I thought it was a business related question but i guess it didn't directly tie into Xstreet even though they list the product for sale. I haven't gotten an email or private message so i can only speculate. /shrug

Several patrons have asked me to install a couple of Zyngo machines. I've had at least four Zyngo sales people come around wanting me to let them install Zyngo machines and they'll supposedly handle setting them up and maintaining them. They can't answer any specific questions about how it works, why settings are a certain way, etc. I felt that if i don't understand how it functions i don't need to get involved with it and take the chance of annoying regular patrons. They aren't that expensive, i'd rather own them so i know they are set up honestly.

Last night a potential tenant approached me wanting to set up a few Zyngo type machines. I diplomatically declined but thought about it later and realized i didn't really know why i declined other then it somehow is a controversial subject.

I searched SL blogs and forums about Zyngo and all i really found were discussions about the camping and bots issues. This is not at all about camping.

I tried to word my questions carefully to avoid controversy.

1. What are the ethics surrounding a small number of Zyngo machines in an adult entertainment facility on adult land?

2. Where can i find facts and figures about how the settings work on these systems so i can be sure they are fair to the patron and that i don't lose my virtual butt?

3. What settings are popular with players and fair to both players and the owner?

4. Why are they so fugly? Are there similar machines that players would trust that look better?

lynne

I can't answer any of those except the last.

There are tons of Zyngo machine skins for sale. Once you have the machines, you can shop around to find a better appearance for them.

Even so, they're still a slot machine. Garish, gaudy. That's how such things are SUPPOSED to look, I guess. Wander through any RL casino and see how quickly your eyes bleed.

I would not put up Zyngo machines. I do not believe they should be treated differently from any other gambling device, and I suspect that there is a dumptruck-load of crap piling up somewhere for when Paypal figures out that LL is still allowing gambling on the grid... even if you don't care about the ethical implications, you don't want to risk being anywhere near the back of the truck when the bed starts a-lifting.

As i understand it, the game is a "skill" based game similar to pinball so it's not gambling. But poker is skill based i think so perhaps i'm just confused.

However, i don't understand all the ins and outs of the topic so i've asked here.

Thanks so far.

lynne

Argent is probably right, at least in the long run. As of now, though, Zyngo and its derivatives are being treated by LL as "not gambling".

Confused is the operative term. Linden Lab has decided, apparently, to give Zyngo a pass... but not other games that are as far as anyone can tell pretty similar.

The whole situation is just waiting for a visit from the fail fairy.

Even if gambling were allowed in SL, if there's no way to understand the odds, then it's unethical.

Personally I think RL slot machines should have their odds posted, but at least there's limited opportunity for the casinos to cheat. With Zyngo or any gambling machine in SL, there's just no way to know the odds, and no way to know that the guy next to you who keeps winning isn't a shill.

I like zyngo, but the skill element is minimal, certainly much less skill-based than poker or most card games. I can't see any justification for it not being banned as gambling, the reason it escapes is probably that it doesn't really exist outside SL so no outside agency is likely to pick up on it.

Most of the zyngo machines I've played have seemed fair, I've heard that it isn't possible to fix the odds, and I've only seen a couple of places where the way the numbers and special cards came out seemed questionable, and that could just have been bad luck over a fairly small number of games.

The key setting for making it attractive is the score needed to win. I prefer machines with a relatively low target score, and correspondingly low prizes, to the ones which pay out big but need a huge score to win. I'd rather win little and often than occassionally hit the jackpot. From what I've seen a payout of 5 x the stake for a winning score of 40000 is about right (on the zyngo wild machines). That might not suit you, as I tended to win about 1 in 4 games, so the house lost , but raising the score just a little would probably give you a modest profit without seeming unfair to the players. Personally I never bother with the machines that need a winning score of 60000 or more, the chances of winning just seem too remote.

And I've never seen a zyngo machine that wasn't hideously ugly.

Thanks so far everyone, i'm starting to understand a little bit better.

The last thing i want to do is annoy good returning patrons with something that seems shady.

I really just want them there as entertainment. Don't want to make a bunch of money or lose a bunch of money either; they just need to carry their own prims cost-wise.

I was thinking of just two or three off in a corner by the pool table and dart board and not even advertising them.

The more informed my decision is the better. =)

lynne

How can they be completely skill based?... where things fall in the game is determined by the computer via some type of random number (placing determination) generator.

If you're just looking for entertainment value, one option you might consider is setting a couple of them up as freeplay machines with a fairly high target score and a low (around 10L) payout. Not all of them, mind you; just one or two of them. The longer someone hangs around trying to win your 10L with a high score, the more likely that person is to eventually try out your other machines.

It's about as skills-based as Bingo. However, strategically deciding where to use your wild cards *could* be seen as a skill of sorts.

That would probably even be legal in most jurisdictions.

What's the house odds? British gambling law isn't so much interested in whether something's a game of skill or chance (or a combination of the two) as it is in whether everyone -- including the house -- has the same chances.

how does one compute odds in this situation and how are they expressed?

When you look at how much the house pays out and what the odds are on its having so to do, does it expect to operate these machines at a profit?

Huh? If the house doesn't have an edge, how do they make money? I'd understand putting a limit on the house's edge, or making sure that the game isn't rigged, but the house depends upon their edge in the odds.

I just asked out of interest. If that's the case, then these devices would be covered by UK gambling legislation, which is less interested in whether something's a game of chance than it is in what the odds are. Over here, the rules are a lot stricter about where you can play Blackjack, for example, than about where you can play Texas Hold 'Em (which a bar can allow people to play without having a special gambling licence, so long as the stakes are modest). In the latter case, the bar makes its money by selling you drinks, and opportunity to play cards is an attraction, like the pool table, which might induce you to drink there rather than elsewhere.

I realize that UK law's irrelevant here, and I just asked out of interest.

It was a good question and it actually illustrates what i had planned to use these machines for better then i could explain.

I get confused when i start looking at the payouts and win numbers and percents and then odds. I'm not even sure what even odds are....other then saying 50/50? Bleh, i'm sad! lol

I tend to think that 10 to 15% for the house is fair so it can carry it's prim cost but not sure how that computes to odds.

Okay... wait a minute. You say that you've had several patrons ask for machines and at least 4 sales people ask to set them up? Umm.. did you "call" the sales people or did they just appear?

Wait a minute what? They strolled in, introduced themselves and pitched their products. why does that deserve a "wait a minute"? I have good traffic so i'm a target of Business to business salespeople.

I've actually been pretty bored with the whole zyngo thing but you get poked and prodded often enough and a girl starts to pay attention.

I gently and diplomatically showed them all the door when they couldn't explain the math. There has been very little explanation of the math so far so i'm still without these machines and may be for some time.

Raudf Fox, i own a brothel, no need to be coy with me, what are you getting at with your "wait-a-minute"?

Thank you for everyone's help. =)

Raudf didn't mean anything against your establishment. He meant, maybe you are being set up. Alts A, B, C come in, look around, say "Hey this place could use some Zyngo machines. I love to play and I'd come here every night!" Pretty soon Alt D comes in, sample case in hand. "Hi, I'm selling Zyngo machines! Do you think your customers would like to play Zyngo here?"

A setup, see? All the same guy, who works for Copybotted Zyngo Machines R Us.

Hello Lynne -

I got hooked on Zyngo when I was taking the traffic cone tours, and was impressed by how addictive they can be..........so I purchased a Zyngo machine directly from the creator on Xstreet, to set up in my store. I added another game machine, as well.....and purchased that one from a resale shop. It works fine. Both have worked fine for months, with not one problem.

I put them in a back room, with some lucky chairs....and people love stopping in there. There will be the hard core Zyngo players, and also regular customers stop in there to play as well. Some of the Zyngo players have turned into really good customers, and some of the customers have turned into really good Zyngo players.

It's going to depend on what your intentions are for the use of them, as to how you set up pay-ins and pay-offs. I added them just for fun, and to generate some traffic in a new section of the store. Each machine is set to play Free - and there is a 50L pay-off, once a day, to the highest score. It has really been fun for people, and it has added some new customers to the store.

As far as ethics....if you run every single thing that you do in your business all day long....in a forum thread....there will be a certain percentage of people that have an ethical issue with every single thing that you do.....just the way it is.

I like zyngo, play occasionally and I don't really understand the whole "controversy" over them anyway.