Do PIOFs and NPIOFs get a free ride?

And you think that would worry LL?

Pep (The time that the management was concerned about aesthatics is long gone.)

I happened to like SL a whole lot better pre-open sign-ups .

And in spite of what my forum posts may suggest I don't walk around with a bias in-world either . However, it always turns out that the majority of people I like best and am most involved with always turn out to be "payment info used" simply because they have the most in common with me.

That's not to say that I don't know any NPIOFs but they're generally obsessed with "have to find a way to get L$" and you can't really do anything with them because when they shop they're only ever interested in what kind of freebies are available and nothing else which leads to me constantly giving handouts to someone who really is quite capable of buying the L$ I'm giving them only to get them to stop bringing me down with the constant "aww I can't take a snapshot because I don't have L$10".

Or I'll get tp'ed to someplace that is quite clearly not land they own in which case I get to go through the uncomfortable "I'm sorry but I am not going to squat on someone else's home" which always leads to a blank look of "whaaaa?" because they can't figure out that using someone else's land without their knowledge/permission is simply not acceptable behaviour.

Or you'll go do something but they don't have the necessary things because they don't have L$, or I'll get the entertaining lecture of how stupid I am for paying $120/month in tier for my home which is always tremendous fun. So all in all at best it's plain akward being around them, or depressing, or a way to get insulted.

And yes, that's my personal little perspective and it's not valid to extrapolate it to anyone who isn't me . But I do know that I'm hardly the only one with similar experiences (and I'm not even mentioning all the abuse that is primarily NPIOF-based).

And trying to phrase this in a general way: I really don't care if there are *some* "free ride" accounts; everything you said makes completely sense and there are benefits. There were before June '06 as well (and even NPIOFs back then).

But open sign-ups completely threw the balance between paying and non-paying and it's clear that there aren't enough non-paying converting to paying to offset the extra costs (if there were then tier on certain "products" wouldn't keep increasing as LL struggles to find new income to compensate). So instead of symbiosis like you're explaining it you get a more parasitic behaviour which is shown in the constant outright refusal to pay for anything *no matter what*.

This is probably a bad example in a largely US-based forum but in RL social security also means that the unemployed get a "free ride" but that's hardly a bad thing then either as long as it's primarily used as the safety net it's intended to be. But if the unemployed start refusing to find work ever again en masse and the pool of unemployed keeps growing then you either significantly raise the taxes of the ones that are still working (not likely) or you start penalizing and revoking the "right" to unemployment benefits for those who are a drain on the system.

Cherished, not loathed, by me anyway. Like those fat-bottomed girls who make the rockin' world go round! ... Er, oops, bad analogy, sorry!

/me blows Lear a kiss.

Ad infested SL 2.0? Hmmm..I would definitely re up to Premium to avoid that.

The statement was made that only those who contribute real money impact LL's bottom line. While strictly true, it misses the point that freebers make contributions that add incentives for payers to do so.

Why should they give you the choice?

Pep (They have said that Premium revenues are pretty much of an irrelevance, and the advertisers would almost certainly insist on access to those who demonstrably were willing to spend money on fripperies.)

ok...."a statement was made"......but your thread starts off with "I often see......"

Good, because anonymity vs. accountability and its impact on abuse is completely off the topic of this thread, which is about payment vs. nonpayment. I'm happy to see you're not jumping on that bandwagon to nowhere!

I don't understand: where would the line be drawn? What changed in June '06?

An incommensurate rise in LL's rates is a good argument. However, it could just be attributable to bad forecasts on LL's part -- i.e., they didn't charge enough to begin with. We'd have to ask LL whether allowing free accounts helped or hurt their bottom line, and I bet they'd have a hard time figuring that out even with all their financial data. But I have to admit that I'm speculating.

Both are true. That was simply the latest example.

Where on earth does this happen?

I put money in every couple weeks, and have never taken a penny out. I have a number of friends and acquaintances who are mainly content creators, and have never felt even a hint of that.

I suspect it was a little bit tongue-in-cheek, and based on some forum posts than experience with merchants inworld, most of whom are happy for good customers regardless of their philosophies.

I'd respond to this, but they'd probably tell us to get a room.

Come see me, dear, and I'll be happy to discriminate against you, if that's what floats your boat!

ok....I'm sorry, but the way the tone of your original statement sounds....really hard to have a fair discussion. At least from one perspective.

I like a man who's willing to work with other's kinks.

I suspect if free accounts were hurting LL's bottom line, they would do something about it.

As an aside, I see a lot of very well equipped NPIOF avatars in Adult regions. Presumably people are using NPIOF alts for that, and either using their main to buy L$, or buying L$ through a third party. I'm fairly sure they are putting money into SL.

I have a few NPIOF alts, they still bring money in and spend it. I simply have no reason to put payment information on file for those accounts. I can think of at least a couple reasons not to. Reducing the number of times it's out there, marginally decreasing the chances of something awful happening if LL's database is compromised being top of that list. Also, you know an NPIOF avatar in an Adult region is age verified.

I was voicing my opinion. I made no attempt to be unbiased. You're free to post a contrary one. Kitty did, and made some good points.

You've categorized. And pardon if I get all the categories mixed up, because I do not tend to use these categories.

PIU = Payment info used? And these are considered the "Payers?" Correct me, please, if I got that wrong.

How about a category for PIU's who do not actually "pay." For instance, someone who makes enough profit, so that even though they were charged a fee on the credit card.....it cancels out, from their profits. Is the "freeloader" tag to be applied to them, as well?

The "Commerce" "Forums". There's a code phrase for it: "those who don't even earn enough to pay their tier."

I tend to agree, but just playing devil's advocate, I don't think LL always does the best thing (OMG!), and it's also possible that they regret the decision but can't change it now.

I suspect their strategy was to scale up as fast as possible and work out the profit side of the equation later (as Google did).

Good point, though I doubt those who object to freebers would object to alts of paying customers.

Still, a good thing for me to keep in mind, that just because I see NPIOF or PIOF in someone's profile, does not mean that they don't put reall money into SL, and use anything I learn from their behavior in favor of my OP. So much for objective evidence! :-/

Interesting! I'd think, I *do* make enough to pay my tier. I just make it in First Life

Sort of the reverse of people who make their money to pay First Life rent in Second Life. ^_^

Fixed it for you.

The distinction I'm drawing, or rather, the one made by others that I'm referring to, is between those who put real money into SL (by buying $L or by being a premium member) and those who don't.

We can't really use the profile info as a hard guide for this, because of alts and because NPIOF can buy $L in secondary markets (e.g., what XStreet used to offer).

If we see "PIU" (Payment info used), we know that that avatar has bought $L from LL or they're a premium account. If we see the following:

- PIOF - payment info on file
- NPIOF - no payment info on file

we only know about that account, which could be an alt, but it means that that account has not transferred money to LL.

That's an interesting question. I'm not applying the term "freeloader" to anyone, so I certainly wouldn't. And I wouldn't say they're "getting a free ride" either, because unless they're criminals, they're clearly creating value, or they wouldn't be earning $L.

I could argue on behalf of those who denigrate the contribution of freebers, and say that those who make incomes in SL are contributing to the economy, because payers have to convert real money into $L (which LL generally benefits from), and the income earners have to convert $L into real money (which LL generally benefits from). And most business have expenses that pay directly to LL.

However, I feel that anyone who makes SL a more interesting or enjoyable place to be is making a contribution, and I don't need to make a distinction between those with a net profit from those with a net deficit for the purposes of my point.

Kitty has refined the argument, perhaps, from whether freebers may *any* contribution, to whether they make enough of a contribution to justify their existence. It's a good point. I have to admit that that one would be a very difficult one to settle.

I would even pay a higher premium fee to avoid it.