The great land grab

I'm late in on this discussion...but I will say it stinks...stinks to high heaven. There's nothing we can do, other than check and recheck our references and neighbors.

I do not own land. I choose to be on a basic account, and I continue to only rent space. Renting space gives me the opportunity to choose a location that is to my liking. And if the land owner/renter ever went belly up (or just splits), I lose very little Linden.

Instead of buying land...I rent from multiple key locations--this works very well for my small design and modeling firm, saves me Lindens, and is a bit safer if something were to happen.

Cheers. And sorry about your bad luck.

Why not? There is no need to look at it. Let's say you're in the market for a class 4 sim for the cheaper tier, and have your own raw file that you want to put down. What difference does it make if you finally get one? Unless you're buying the business or want to keep the tenants, there is no need to know what is on the island.

What the residents lose is twofold: 1) their lindens, which, coincidentally, do NOT go to the buyer and 2) their spot on the island, which is more or less fungible for another spot elsewhere. The more important loss is #1) and it is not the buyer that took those monies. This is the SELLER's problem.


Yeah, okay... so, realistically, how does that happen? By not paying, and letting the sale of his island go to someone else?

This is why if I were to buy an island, I wouldn't bother with getting it from a resident. I'd get it from LL. Unless I specifically wanted to take over the business and the headaches that go with it, I would avoid old islands like the plague.

I am either misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me.

If your business model is to buy a private island, sell the parcels at market rate, and then collect tier, where is your profit? Well your profit is in collecting "tier" that is higher than the amount of tier you pay for the island.

I own two parcels under the "own on a private island" concept. On both I paid what amounts to full market price. One has very minimal "service" from the landlord. I pay exactly the same tier as I would pay if it was mainland $24. That landowner makes her profit on the difference between the 16 parcels each paying $24 ($384) and the amount she pays Linden ($195 -- it's a class 4). So she paid $1675 for the sim. Her owners, including myself, paid her lindens worth probably a good bit more than $1675 -- she profited from buying the sim and reselling it and her investment is 100% repaid. She also makes a profit of $189 each month on the tier differential on the sim.

Ok I understand you can argue that's not enough profit a month to be worth it. Honestly, I agree. (Or I would own a few sims.) OTOH it seems to have worked out for her, but that's her choice. I have a similar parcel under similar arrangements and the monthly on that is $30/month for it and that gives her a higher profit margin and I get better service and the sim is themed and heavily restricted.

I'm not sure if you're doing the "resale" model how else you make a profit. Obviously selling the property and then evicting people without reason is not a legitimate method of profit. I think we all agree on that one.



I understand your objection here, but if someone buys a parcel that makes up a quarter of a private island for $500, about the going rate, is forfeiting the $500 parcel without any due process or compensation really reasonable if they put up something ugly? Is putting the entire risk here at the hands of buyers really the best option? How about making the deposit 90% of the purchase price rather than 100%? Or the deposit 100% of the purchase price minuse 2 months tier. I understand the purpose of having a covenant/agreement, but right now it's only one way. The covenant says I can't build ugly junk -- that's why I live there! The covenant also says I have resale rights.

And, of course, you aren't forced to subdivide and sell land on a private island. You can just as easily charge 0 (or 1) and go the pure rental model. I honestly wish more landlords would do this, but the up front cost is more difficult for landlords and some residents want to "own" rather than "rent."

There has to be some method of dealing with this and the status quo of all the power in on one side clearly isn't working.

Very few people are going to be kicked off 1/4 sim for building something ugly. I've never heard of that, and I've heard of dozens of crazy things almost daily. They might have what they built returned to them, they may get a note from the region owner, the sim might be sold out from under them - all sorts of crazy things. But tossed out for building something ugly? New one on me.

Trouble is, due process cost is probably more expensive than the 500 USD at stake, timewise. Plus, how are you going to find facts? Chatlogs and screenshots ain't worth the pixels they are printed on, unless verified somehow. These may include offworld chatlogs too.

How many of you had your land contracts notarised, or the resident griefing documented by a neutral, trustworthy-to-all 3rd party?

How many land covenants spell out all the 'ridiculous stupid stuff' that are 'allowed by lack of inclusion' too?

"But your honour, he was in a 256m hippo avatar crushing my region!"

"Show me where it says he can't do that"

All this kinda stuff has to happen before due process can be applied.


* * * * *


The entire risk isn't in the hands of residents, unless you can resell a region precisely when you want to for near what you paid for it.

And have 100% occupancy, or close to, from day one.

And your time is worth about a buck an hour and not more.

Land barons and residents alike share risk, though clearly there are disproportionate instances. They also share the reward when things go well.

UPDATE***

I wanted to give everyone an update - The previous sim owner has stepped up and been very generous in fixing the situation . He has offered the same amount of land on a new sim at no charge. I commend him for fixing an unfortunate situation. There are good people on SL and I appreciate his offer and I consider him an honorable man for doing so.

It's unfortunate that people exist like the new owner BUT I seen that the previous owner is willing to do something to make amends - and that is acceptable to me.

Good on him for doings so, it's just all this should have been discussused with his tenants before the handover, would have saved a lot of angst, I tend to think the obligation to tenants is on the seller unless he arranges otherwise with the new owner. He can either take his good tenants with him or the new owner may gain good tenants if that is what he desires. If the new owners told him he would keep the tenants then kicked them out then he is obviously a bad egg.

See Desmond's post above. He said it better than I can.

I do own sims so I don't need an explanation of business models and how they relate, I am just saying that I don't find your plan of requiring 90% repayment if kicking someone, to be viable. Not as an estate owner, anyway. Under your plan, my $1675 is only ever 10% paid for because the other 90% would be required to be held in "escrow" in case I needed to remove a resident.

Storm that is very nice of that island owner to do that for you.

Very nice..? It's HIS obligation since HE was the one who collected their lindens!

Whaddaya want, a cookie? What does it take to get it through your heads that the seller is the one who controls the way this shakes out? His island, his tenants, his rents collected. HIS problem to rectify.

I'm very glad that the seller did something about it but it should not seem like it's some unusual step. The buyer may have been bitchy about the eviction but it is her right to do what she wants with her purchase, seller's tenants notwithstanding.

I misread, I thought the new island owner paid him back, not the old one. My bad.

I agree with this post entirely. For heaven's sake, the old owner was not being nice here - it was total CYA (cover your ass) after he started getting grief for people losing their money. I don't consider it "very generous" to make some half-assed attempt to make good on a contract with his tenant that he broke in the first place. Anyone who does is a fool.

it is GREAT that he`s fixing the issue but the fact remains this issue was created due to the lack of communications.

on the forums i doubt it makes much of a difference in opinions as it is still unclear who is at fault untill some insight is being given about the transfer agreements who has the responsabilities

in light of the previous owner offering land for free, the idea of the buyer just wanting to get an inexpensive island is starting to creep around the back of my mind...

Unfortunately, as the other residents have pointed out, LL has created an easy way for people to get scammed. Hence, you should either buy the island, rent from a good friend, or only buy mainland.

I should also point out that this has happened many many times and that a number of multi-sim "barons" have used this scam to purchase more and more land only to scam again.

As far as the estate contract goes, its worse less than the digital 0's and 1's on which it is stored.

THE ESTATE OWNER MAY MODIFY IT AT ANY TIME!

Wow - do you have any solid, or even anecdotal evidence to back this up?

No need to post it here; but I've never personally heard of such a thing. Has anyone else?

I've heard of things like 'the same island sold to four different people' and stuff like that - but it's usually just one island. (that happened to a dear friend of mine and I don't think she'll ever see the money)

Most people with multiple regions that I know are in an almost 'work for free' phase, waiting for their incredible investment in effort to sloooowly pay off.

Whether the island owner is dishonest or not is not the point. Things happen in first life that dictate what happens in second life sometimes. The point is that when you think you are buying estate land you are buying nothing. If you want to buy land, and own it, buy the entire sim or buy mainland land.

This couldn't be more clear.

Some of us did our research before we paid money upfront on an Estate and knew what they were getting into. I did that on two estates with established owners and did just fine. But you are right, the words "buy" and "for sale" are misleading to the novice in regards to estate land.

Glad to hear it's ending well, but I don't understand why you are giving big cheers to the previous owner and condemning the new owner. It was the previous owners responsibility to deal with the situation before it got out of hand. He's the one you initially paid for the use of the land not the new owner. The new owner had no responsibility to you at all. She sounds like her service and communication skills suck, but I sure would be patting the previous guy on the back.

I guess I still can't tell if we're having a disagreement or a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying you have to keep the all the $ in escrow. I'm saying that you need to reasonably refund if you do kick someone or if you sell the sim you either need to refund your buyers or transfer the debt owed to the parcel owners. In either case, I would consider not refunding at least most of a payment to be stealing. The only way you'd need the full amount liquid for refunds is if you were planning to kick all of your residents.

On monday someone puts up $500 worth of Lindens and "buys" a quarter of a residential sim. They build a club and that's against covenant. Tuesday you get the complaints from your other residents (and I'd be one of them complaining). You go and they won't play nice so you kick them. Are you saying it's reasonable to just keep the $500? 100% forfeiture? That's just plain stealing. Yes, they're in the wrong but the punishment needs to fit the crime. You have a right to be compensated for something because they broke covenant, but not the full amount. That's a lot of money.

You use the phrase "you need to reasonably refund". But according to the rules of Linden Lab, you don't NEED to do anything.

That is the real problem here. The system is set up so owners can do anything they want, including kick you off the land and ban you ten seconds after you paid with no refund. You can do anything you want and only people's morals and reputations keep more people from getting ripped off.

It certainly is stealing. But where else do you know of, where can you steal all you want and the authorities won't do a damn thing?

Bottom line: Do your research and choose a reputable estate owner. And pay as little upfront as you can.

Washington, DC and maybe The United Nations come to mind right now.

Your reply makes Hippie Hamster cry.

But your new sig is friggin' hilarious.

I think you're being harsh on the new owner or too easy on the previous owner. The previous owner sold the island remember.

Can you confirm whether there is an actual new owner on that sim? The estate owner isn't the person who sent the notecard.

Actually I would return the club and have a talk with the people. If they continued to rebuild a club there against covenant, and my covenant stated that building clubs would cause you to forfeit money you paid for your land, it is NOT stealing. It is known as upholding an agreement. Covenants are 2 way. The person who pays the money has a chance to agree and buy or disagree and not buy. No one is forcing anyone to put down $500 for a deal they don't agree to.

I think the misunderstanding here is that you seem to be looking at it from an "Estate owner as law enforcement" perspective. I think this because of your statement that "The punishment must fit the crime". Believe me, as an estate owner, I don't consider "punishmnet" to be part of the job description, or part of estate management at all. Everyone in SL is supposed to be an adult, and over 18, therefore capable of upholding their side of a contract. If I sign a lease agreement in RL and then I get evicted for trashing the place or not paying rent, the landlord is not "punishing" or "stealing from" me by evicting me, they are simply protecting their business interests.

I am looking at it from an "Estate owner as a businessperson" perspective.

If I am not keeping the 90% refunds you suggest in escrow, where are they coming from?

OK, size of money apart, I don't think this is a good example. My covenant, for example, makes it quite clear my sims are residential. I EXPLICITLY say - "No clubs, malls, gambling blah blah blah"

If somone turns up and wants to lease a quarter sim, I carry out MY due diligence by making sure they have read and understood the covenant and the terms (including cases where forfeiture might occur, such as non-payment of tier or disrupting other tenants/lessees. BTW my covenant also makes it quite clear that there is no such thing as "buy" - I ALWAYS own the sim).

Carrying on with your example, said person ignores the covenant and builds a club. OK, along I go, "Oh hey, sorry but the covenant we talked through explicitly says no clubs - you'll have to take that down"

Response A: Oh gee Mr Incanus sir, I didn't see that bit and I can't afford the tier without an income
Response B: It's my land now I can do what I like, you can't bully me and these tenants of yours have been griefing me!!! Whatcha' gonna do 'bout it boss?

my response is likely to be on the lines of "Well you said you'd read the covenant - which bit about NO CLUBS did you not understand? (If this turns out to be, in my opinion, a genuine misunderstanding because English is not their first language, for example, I would *probably* refund them.) Take your club down and put up something residential in theme, or I'll have to ask you to leave."

My covenant also makes it quite clear that refunds are at my discretion. That said, it would take some serious pissing-me-off before I would consider booting with no refund - along the lines of an employer dismissing someone on disciplinary grounds and also witholding their pension because of the severity of the offence.

Inc

I don't think there is ever a good reason to keep the 'purchase fee' someone has paid for land; if they continually disregard zoning despite several warnings, boot them by all means, but that money should be repaid IMO. Keep the tier may be, but not the purchase price.

As for keeping money in escrow, well I believe any estate owner who 'sells' land in their sim should have funds readily available to refund every single resident at once should they need to at short notice. To not have the funds available, in my opinion, then puts the business into a class that, though admittedly not exactly the same, is not far removed from an SL Bank.

Ok, then we do understand each other We'll have to agree to disagree.

Eventually someone is gonna do a Ginko on this though and when they do, something really bad stupid and quick is gonna be done by Linden to "fix" it.